Tony Santos [00:00:00]:
I were to hire someone from my channel to help me edit, I would wanna pay no less than $450 a video.

Jay Clouse [00:00:05]:
That's Tony Santos, a YouTube editor with over a decade of experience working with people like Thomas Frank and Noah Kagan. With his own YouTube channel, Tony has built a reputation for helping creators and editors communicate in a more positive way, which makes him the perfect person to teach us how to find, hire, and work with great YouTube editors.

Tony Santos [00:00:25]:
I think just finding the right person and knowing who to trust is equally as important as knowing when.

Jay Clouse [00:00:30]:
In this episode, you'll learn where to look for an editor.

Tony Santos [00:00:33]:
The biggest way I personally find jobs is actually on Twitter. That's probably the best way to do it.

Jay Clouse [00:00:38]:
How to evaluate a potential hire when you're not an editor yourself.

Tony Santos [00:00:42]:
Try to break down and see and notice the things that they've done. The more you can kind of see their work and try to break it down, the better questions you can ask.

Jay Clouse [00:00:51]:
And much, much more. Thank you to Artlist for sponsoring this video. Let's let's imagine that I've started to post on YouTube. I've been editing my own videos, or maybe I'm just wanting to get started on YouTube. And I have edited my own videos, but I don't have the skill set. Where do I go to find editing talent?

Tony Santos [00:01:10]:
Oh, yeah. You know, there's there's so many ways now. So, like, if you need an editor, you for example, let's let's talk then social media. On Facebook, there's, like, a group called I Need an Editor, which an editor can join, and you yourself can join as someone who's looking to hire. And you can find editors on there. You'll just post your job posting. You list all your requirements, and you'll either get a yes or no on the people. Outside of that, there's ytjobs.co.

Tony Santos [00:01:36]:
So that's a website that I've talked about on my own channel a bit, reviewing some job postings. But people who are also editors or other kind of creatives, like, you can be, like, a scriptwriter, a thumbnail designer, you can post your own skills on there and find work on that website as well. The biggest way I personally find jobs is actually on Twitter. So on Twitter or x, however you wanna call it, I just make sure that my whole Twitter is based around my job, which is that I'm a video editor, motion graphics guy. And normally through there, just through word-of-mouth or even just in engaging in tweets is how I find work a lot. And I think that's probably the best way to do it is to find somebody who immediately has a link to their body of work, or they can at least kinda steer you to that. Because in that way, it's kinda easier to weed out who's more serious than not, which even then, that's hard to say. But I I just I know I've met some people who are kinda in it for the money, and I'm just not that kind of person.

Tony Santos [00:02:35]:
So I kinda want someone who's more craft, engaged and, like, excited for the work rather than much can it squeeze out of everyone I work for.

Jay Clouse [00:02:43]:
So You didn't mention, Upwork or Fiverr, which is something that people bring up a lot when looking to hire freelance help. So what's what's the deal there?

Tony Santos [00:02:53]:
Honestly, it's only because I don't have any experience in it. I have never once used those websites and I have known more people who use it that don't like it as opposed to do, which don't get me wrong. There's that that website exists for a reason. I'm sure there's people that like it, but I don't want to speak on it since I don't have really experience on it.

Jay Clouse [00:03:12]:
The folks that you've talked to, I'm assuming you mean editors who have used it who don't like it, or did you mean creators who have hired from it who don't like it?

Tony Santos [00:03:20]:
Both. I've met more editors who told me they don't like it and I think it's because see, this is where, like, my lack of experience comes in, so I don't know how it works. But I think it's because they feel they have gotten more people reach out to them for work. But it's more like gosh, I sound ignorant here what I'm about to say, but it just sounds like from their perspective, it's more people on there looking for a bargain rather than looking for really good talent. And I don't know if that's true or not, but if that is the case, then I myself don't wanna be on there then because that's not what I'm there for either.

Jay Clouse [00:03:54]:
So do you think that there's plenty of editing talent out there to go around, and we just need to do a better job of looking elsewhere to hire or change what we're expecting in hiring?

Tony Santos [00:04:10]:
Yeah. It's it's a mixture because, like, now that I know so many more editors, I know the reason a lot of people don't, like, dedicate to one creator, let's say. Sometimes it's not even the fact that they don't like the work. It's really sometimes just comes down to even money. You know, like, it's better to have 5 high playing paying clients than just one client who's kinda giving you the bare minimum. And, sure, there's gonna be promises along the way of, if we do better, you'll do better, but sometimes people just need the better now. Because when it comes to a lot of it, whenever I would hear someone say like, oh, I really need a good editor for my channel. Who do you recommend or whatever? I usually find it as they're just looking for someone that can kind of be there, kind of like a right hand person, and it's not even usually like a skill thing.

Tony Santos [00:04:54]:
I usually think that it just comes down to a compatibility issue, because some people hire editors nowadays, and there's a lot of us out there, but they'll hire them. And the the editor they're specifically hiring is someone who is strictly on, like, a freelance basis, meaning you're not the priority. You're one of let's say many clients and That's why I like to strive for when you hire someone you should get someone that is dedicated to your team and your mission, because in that way, you have them full time, but then also there's gonna be that time period of adjustment. You know, like, I've been editing for 15 years, so I have 15 years of knowledge that has nothing to do with you and your channel. And if I come in to help your channel, I need to now learn your processes the way you like things, and that's all something that happens over time. So I I think technical skills can always be learned. It's more just you gotta just make sure that the person you're looking to hire is in it for the long term, and it's a mutual beneficial situation for the editor and the creator as well.

Jay Clouse [00:05:54]:
So when do you think I should be considering hiring an editor? Like, when am I ready to hire somebody? Because it sounds like part of the issue is a lot of times people start hiring too early in terms of what they can afford or they have the wrong expectations, perhaps. So at what point do you think somebody should make this a priority on their team?

Tony Santos [00:06:18]:
Well, even it's funny you asked because even now, let's say for my channel, like, things are slowly picking up and I have a lot of work I have to do. Realistically, given my workload, I would love help, and there's a certain amount of money that I would want to pay someone for said help, but I'm not financially there yet to promise anyone anything, so I just don't do it. And I think that's a good testament to what I think a lot of us should think of it as is, like, sure, I could use the help now. I would love someone to take the the workload off of me, but am I paying them fairly? And can I can I have this person be around with me to make sure that they have consistent work, and can I afford said consistent work? Because I think that a lot of people, when they hire, they they wanna they really want someone to help them to take the channel to the next level, which, again, I personally love doing that. That's why I like to take occasional side work. But, again, it's more just I think if you can actually afford even just one video a month and you can negotiate that with the editor, then I think you're ready. I think once you understand that this person's livelihood is gonna be part of something you have to think about every month and you can handle that, then I think even just business wise, you can do it. But I will say that I think just finding the right person and knowing who to trust is equally as important as knowing when to hire because that process is gonna take a while, which I think I don't know if you've experienced that with anyone that you're working with, but did that take you a while to even find someone?

Jay Clouse [00:07:52]:
After a quick break, Tony and I get into the details of how much you should expect to pay a video editor. So stick around. We'll be right back. And now back to my conversation with Tony Santos. Yeah. I mean, our our producer and editor is Connor. And I knew Connor, at least a little bit for a couple years before we even started working together. He actually pitched me on coming to work with a channel, and, you know, now the last 2 years that we've been working together, certainly, I've gotten to know each other a lot better and, found some of the strengths that he has that I wasn't even aware of or different ways that he can flex into the role and and do more.

Jay Clouse [00:08:30]:
So we'll we'll for sure talk about finding the right person here because a lot of times this is this is the where I'm making this video in the first place. People ask me, how do I find a good editor? How did you find Connor? And my answer is, like, unfortunately, Connor found me. Fortunately for me, unfortunately for you, the person I gave advice to. So I'm I'm trying to find more consistent, ways to recommend this, but something you just something you touched on that I think could be really insightful because you are an editor. You have been hired at different levels. You know, I know when you first started, you were hired at $30 per video, and then you're doing $3.350 per video with Tom when you started. Now, you're into 1,000 of dollars per month on retainer. So as you're thinking about, it would be nice to hire somebody to help me with my channel, but I'm not sure I can pay them what I would want to yet.

Jay Clouse [00:09:19]:
What does that look like? How are you thinking about what you would want to pay somebody, given that you have been in that seat before?

Tony Santos [00:09:27]:
Yeah. Actually, for me, it's I just gotta make sure that I am not doing something that feels hypocritical. Like, I like, again, I have been doing this for so long and I started and gotten payments in so many ranges. Like, I've been paid $10 a video, $30 a video. A guy tried to negotiate with me $80 a week and it was 5 videos a week, which I almost took, but that's just because I didn't know any better. And the thing is, like, ever since I met Thomas, that was my real eye opener as to what is possible given the right mind set and then also just working with the right person that understands you as well. So, for example, if I were to hire someone from my channel to help me edit even, like, my own interviews that I'm doing, I would wanna pay no less than $450 a video. And the only reason I stick to that number is because I want to do slightly better than what Tom was able to do for me when we first started and I also understand the idea of progressively scaling from there.

Tony Santos [00:10:25]:
So I would talk with the editor, like, look. I can maybe only afford 1 video a month, but as long as you're there with me, you collaborate with me, and, like I like everyone says, as the channel does better, we will do better together. But, again, I also understand that I am not then gonna be their full time, employee or, what do you call it? Like, creator. So I cannot be upset if they take other side work. You know? Like, the at the end of the day, I understand them and I hope that they understand me where we can collaborate and know, like, you have all the time in the world to do all your other projects. But for me, it's 450, and we'll take things from there.

Jay Clouse [00:11:02]:
That's a helpful benchmark. I wanna see if there are any other embedded assumptions into that figure. When you think about $450 per video, are you thinking about the length of the videos that you want to create or how in-depth those videos are? Because videos come in all shapes and sizes. Right? $450 for this video over here probably feels a lot different than $450 for this video over here. So how do you think about the type of work that you're doing? And I wanna talk about geography here in a second as well, but let's let's see what else is baked into that figure.

Tony Santos [00:11:37]:
Well, it's funny because even saying that, I have a lot of conflicting issues in my head because now that I've gotten to meet so many editors, like, I I finally know people now that we even work in Hollywood and I I'm happy to say I have friends there. So the more that we discuss even how they work their day rates, there's also a group called the Blue Collar Post Collective. And in in that group, they do a wage survey every year where anyone in the production sphere can go ahead and and put how much money they make that year, what their job title is, how long they've been doing it, and you can use that as a method to compare your salary based to other people at certain jobs. And the more I got to understand that part, the more I understand both how hard it could be to get something sustainable on YouTube because we don't all have all this big money like companies do to pay an editor. But at the same time, I have to understand, like, I can't pay an editor pennies, because if I do, then I feel like I'm being hypocritical to to basically my my own people, so to speak. So, like, yeah, one video that calls 4:50 for me would be, like, my interviews that I do, and that's because they take normally 20 to 30 hours to make. So I like to think of it like, okay, let's say for 4.50, I were to hunt, hire, let's say, Connor, like you said, but Connor was like, hey, I charge $50 an hour, Then I will say, okay, I have 450 I can spare. You do as much as you can with that 4.50, and whatever it is that ends up being that and I'll finish it up.

Tony Santos [00:13:03]:
Like, I think it's because I'm so in the weeds now, and I understand so much more. It makes it hard for me to find the right number, but I'm happy with 450 as I don't think that is the worst that I feel is out there.

Jay Clouse [00:13:17]:
Yeah. This is this is a good nuance because what you've kinda just touched on there is this collaboration of finding out what is possible for editing this one piece of content because what you've what you've said there is that you're you're kind of assuming that the editor themselves has a value on their time. So you're saying this is what I value the output. So if I'm coming to you because I think your work quality is good But this is my budget for the output of 1 video and you're valuing your time at $50 per hour that would mean that this output is gonna come out of 9 hours of your time. Do you do you think that most editors have a figure like that in mind so that when you come to them and say, I can offer $450 per video, they can do that math and say okay well if I think my time is worth $3 per hour I'm gonna put 9 hours in or do you think they're thinking just about how how can I do my best work for $450?

Tony Santos [00:14:17]:
Yeah. It it's definitely both. Like, I I know enough people that there's there's sometimes projects that we take that are on a per project basis, and someone right now could say, oh, I'll happily edit one of your videos for $450. That sounds amazing. But given that I know how much time it takes, I also let them know, like, well, on average, this takes me 20, 30 hours. If you don't feel like 4:50 is enough, then just give me the amount of hours that you feel you value to give me, which I know is probably not like the the best business strategy, but I can't pretend that I don't know how a lot of this works, and I would feel really guilty doing otherwise. I don't know. I I want more editors to definitely think of it that way, and I also want creators to think of it that way as well.

Tony Santos [00:15:00]:
Because it's very easy to say $200 for a project sounds great, but that's an easy way for an editor to get stuck with a project that's gonna take 30 hours. You do the math. Like, did you really make that much hourly, or would you have gotten a better job elsewhere, even working like a regular job that would have paid you more? And I definitely don't want editors to feel like they always have to take jobs like that, especially coming from me. I I I don't feel good doing that.

Jay Clouse [00:15:22]:
Yeah. I feel like the conflict can come from misaligned expectations because if if I'm the creator and I'm saying I'm willing to budget $450 per video or whatever the number is. Mhmm. I also probably have some set of assumptions in my mind as to what that final work product should look like. And if I just go to the editor and they say, sure, I'll do a I'll do an edit for you for $450, and they have in their mind, here's how many hours that I'm willing to put into this at that price, there's a good chance there's a disconnect between the final work product of what the creator might have been expecting and what could be accomplished in those hours. So if I'm hiring an editor and having these conversations, how do I have those conversations? How do I make sure that we're on the same page and we're aligned with not just the price, but what we expect the work product to be. Should that be on the creator to start that conversation or will the editor push that forward?

Tony Santos [00:16:18]:
Honestly, I think it could be it can be both, but I do think maybe the creator would start that conversation more just because, like, I'm thinking back when I first started with Thomas and when Tom mentioned that he was gonna pay me $350 to edit an entire video, I was mind blown, and that was because no one has ever offered me that much. The most I've gotten at that time, I believe, was the $80. And so I was ecstatic but the thing with Tom that I knew, that factored into me accepting this was that this is something that he wanted long term. So when something is longer termed, you can negotiate and have less pricing, but that's because you're at least getting consistent work. And then you also know that there's a growth factor to this that has been discussed. But a lot of times when editors get approached or at least the ones that I've met, they always tell me it's always like on a per project basis. They expect the world for, like, $300, and that's when they realized that this project took $30. They couldn't do the other work.

Tony Santos [00:17:15]:
So I think the creator the more they understand how much or how much work goes into their own videos I think it's easier to bring up the conversation like here's how long it usually takes me you know, I can maybe promise you 2 videos a month So from there what do you as the editor think and the editor could then try to think like, okay. Well, I could swing that. I can afford that. I'll take less pay because this is a long term agreement, not just once a month or something or even just once and call it quits. So I think the creator, as long as they understand their own videos and what they expect from the editor, then I think those conversations can be easier because sometimes editors don't even get those kind of questions They're just more being told what to do and they have to either accept it or the person leaves

Jay Clouse [00:17:57]:
do you think is more common for editors to hear project based pricing as the offer or hourly or retainer? What do you think what do you think is the most common, and what do you think is optimal, all things considered?

Tony Santos [00:18:13]:
I think in the online space, per project is definitely the most common because it's even what I usually would agree to as well. Even though technically, if I know if I broke things down hourly, sometimes it wouldn't be as worth it. But the reason I do per project is because I try to remember, like, as long as this is a long term thing, I will always accept less money, for consistency rather than trying to maximize my dollars per hour. But I think the I think the reason it's also easier on the online space to do per project is because they at least know that for this whole video, it could take you 5 hours to make. It could take you x o x amount of more hours to make. Like, no matter what, you at least know you're getting that money that I hope was in writing and was promised to you. So then you can just start to play with that number and you start realizing as an editor, like, okay, these take me, like, 10 hours to make. Maybe in the future, we can renegotiate a higher price.

Tony Santos [00:19:07]:
Or after these 10 hours, I can squeeze in another client to make more money. To sum all that up too, when it comes to even something like hourly, I know a lot more traditional people who would tell me that editors should be charging hourly. The trickiest part about that that I've experienced is what you said already, which is the expectation that people have of you. And let's say you hired me and you're like, alright. I want this video done, but you never told me how long it would normally take you. And let's say it took me, like, 15 hours to edit the video in completion, but you tell me, hey, that should have taken you 10. And it's like, why should I have taken me 10? We never agreed to that. I never said I was gonna take 10 hours.

Tony Santos [00:19:47]:
So then now the editor is gonna somewhat be punished because the person that hired them had higher expectations that was originally discussed. And I also think that's very unfair. So that's why I tell people if you do hourly or if you do it per project, get it in writing, kind of like a contract, because I know how shady some people can be, and, that's not good for the community if we do things like that.

Jay Clouse [00:20:08]:
I've freelanced a little bit too. It wasn't in video editing. It was in things like marketing and website building. And I've realized a lot of times freelancers don't have business experience and so a lot of these conversations happen after the fact because they haven't experienced a conversation before and because they don't know what might happen if expectations are not aligned, and it can start relationships off on a difficult foot. So, you know, I I'm trying to educate the creators here and how they can set both parties up for more success. I've also realized as a freelancer, sometimes it's dangerous to depend on one major client for your income because if this is work for hire and this is truly freelance work, there's not a lot of security there. So do you think that editors in a freelance capacity, do you think they prefer working with multiple clients for security, or do you think most editors actually prefer working with a smaller number of clients, maybe even just one consistent client?

Tony Santos [00:21:17]:
I would say depending on the editors' work life balance and what they strive for, I I would say it's probably best to work with less people who pay more as opposed to a lot more clients who pay somewhat okay. And the only reason for that is I know the mental health capacity that comes with that, and juggling so many clients can definitely be a pain. Like, I even struggle just juggling too sometimes, and the reason for that is because the amount of time that I put into the projects that I work on, it's just not a good situation for me. So, yeah, I would say if editors are out there listening too, or even, like, for the creators out there, like, if you really want someone, we're probably more inclined to stick with 1 person longer term as long as you pay more, just because then our needs are covered, we understand there's growth, we understand the the potential of what can come from this, and, you know, that value is a lot more than 10 people who are only giving me a 100 to make a 1,000 as opposed to Thomas can give me a 1,000 so long as I dedicate my time to him, and I would definitely do that.

Jay Clouse [00:22:20]:
You gave us a really helpful number on if I was thinking about project based, and you said typically approaching somebody with a project based number is helpful. If if I'm interviewing editors and they're giving me hourly rates because that's what they're used to, What range do you typically see as common, or appropriate in an hourly basis?

Tony Santos [00:22:41]:
Yeah. That one's tricky because it depends on where you live. It can be statewide, country, depending on the country. If you're a new editor, you can just Google, like, what's a starting rate for an editor? And let's say it's, like, $20.1, then use that as your own metric. Like, there's no right or wrong answer, so then you would just start at 21. But then if you feel you're more experienced and you can back up your experience and you can show the clients you work with, then just continue raising the bar there, you know, no one's stopping you like not to, you know, make anyone feel bad. I this opened my eyes, but I learned there's, like, this one guy in Hollywood who his day rate, which is how much he makes a day, is 2 grand. And I was like, holy cow.

Tony Santos [00:23:22]:
I never knew that number was possible. And he probably never thought that either until his clients valued his time that much that they pay him now for that. So it really will just depend on how much you value your time, where do you think your skill is, and can you back up the claim? Because nowadays if people wanna work with me, like, I'll be honest. My my time is not valued at a $100 an hour, and if someone wants to pay me less than that, I have enough experience to know that they they are then not giving me enough value money wise that I should just put my time into Tom because we have enough going on that is more than worth it. So I'll just stick with Tom as opposed to taking, you know, the lesser paid job. But even then, remember, I I keep things very, dependent on what the project is and who approaches me for work. I would love to share that right now on my channel, I am focused more on creating content that really speaks more to both editors and creators, especially the new series I've started where I'm talking with friends that I have both in the online space as well as in Hollywood and traditional media. For example, one of my interviews was with my friend Andy Young, who works at Warner Brothers, and we talk about stuff like our our pay, how he went from YouTube to Warner Brothers, the kind of questions that, like, you should be asking when it comes to your pay, and he shares so much more insights that I think are so valuable that only you would learn if you were doing, the kind of work that we do.

Jay Clouse [00:24:48]:
After one more quick break, Tony and I talk about how to vet whether an editor is a good fit for you or not. So don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. And now please enjoy the rest of my conversation with Tony Santos. Okay. So let's say that I I took your advice and I go on social media and I find someone in the editing community, and now I'm starting to see, okay, well, Tony is talking to Connor, and Connor is talking to this person. So now I I can, like, see the the growing network of editors in this social network. And I wanna reach out to one of them and say, hey, do you have any availability? How should I navigate that conversation? 1, what should I be looking for? How do I know that this person might be a good fit for me?

Tony Santos [00:25:33]:
Oh, yeah. Well, I would suggest, always keep things professional and that goes for anybody. Like, I I personally don't like it when people message me saying yo because I'm like, we're not no offense, but, like, we're not friends, so I'd rather you just approach me.

Jay Clouse [00:25:49]:
Hey, bro.

Tony Santos [00:25:50]:
Exactly. I think, personally, the best way that I like to get messaged is, who are you? What are you messaging me for? Give me some links to the bodies of work that you've worked on and are looking for me to work on as well. Any inspirations? So if you're like, oh, yeah. I'm making productivity and lifestyle. My biggest inspiration's Matt D'Avella. That gives me so much context immediately as to what this person's looking for. And then lastly, please just put the amount of money that you're considering paying me because that can always be negotiated. But also, I I just like to be realistic and, like, I don't wanna get so excited for a project until they say, well, I can only afford $50 a video, and I'm like, well, if I'd known that prior, I could have easily told you I'm sorry.

Tony Santos [00:26:33]:
I can't take that. So don't be afraid to throw out numbers either, but just keep it as a range, you know, just so the person if they reply to you, you know already that they kind of already said yes in a way to a lot of what you're stating.

Jay Clouse [00:26:46]:
If I if I see somebody's public portfolio, how should I, as the creator, look at that and consider it? You know, am I looking for okay. This is exactly the style that I'm going for, so I know I'm good. But if I don't see exactly my style, then it's not a fit. Is that is that true? Or is there some other signal I can be looking forward to see that this might work for my channel?

Tony Santos [00:27:12]:
I think something that I mean, it's hard to really know how somebody completes their work, but what I normally would do then, whenever I meet someone and I wanna see their skill set myself, let's say someone goes to Thomas Frank's channel, they look at a video that's been edited, right? So when you watch the video of someone you're you're gonna potentially reach out to, as you're watching the video, try to break down and see and notice the things that they've done. So you'll notice like, okay, so there was music. There was b roll. Oh, there was animations. Did they create those animations themselves or was that templacized? The music choices are great. Is that something that the editor is doing by himself or is he getting help from the creator? Those lower thirds are great again where those templates or where those custom The reason you wanna start breaking down and asking these questions is because you'll also know as a as a creator, I'm looking for someone that can work with templates or I'm looking for someone that is a motion graphics designer, but then that's a whole skill set on its own. So the more you can kind of see their work and try to break it down, the better questions you can ask the the editor. Because then you'll realize, like, no offense to the editor, but, you know, I don't have templates.

Tony Santos [00:28:19]:
I was hoping you can make them. Then you can gauge their skills that right there, and then even you would be like, you know what? Maybe this this isn't a fit. And now you know you need a motion graphics designer as well, not just an editor.

Jay Clouse [00:28:30]:
You just mentioned that, motion graphics, totally different skill set. So if I'm looking to hire a video editor, I shouldn't expect that they can do animation or motion graphics?

Tony Santos [00:28:42]:
I wouldn't say you shouldn't expect it because there's so much that you can do in video editing software. It's more just like like I've actually been contacted before to give perspective here. There was this big music company and they wanted me to edit a trailer. And they specifically said, edit a trailer. And of course, I asked for context. Right? So we agreed. We went through this. And then at the end, when it came to, like, finally delivering the project, they somehow assumed that I was a 3 d, 4 d, animator and, like, designer that knew Blender and all this other I'm like, when did we ever discuss that I had that skill set? That's an that's a whole other person, You know? So the reason it's it's good to understand the differences in skill sets, it isn't because someone isn't, like, as good as another editor.

Tony Santos [00:29:29]:
It's because not every editor, even in traditional, like in Hollywood, not every editor has that skill set. So if someone has that, that just increases the value for the person. And I know plenty of people that know, both Premiere and After Effects like myself, but I have to be real too. Like, if you want a lot more animations and custom work, that has to be involved in the pricing, because I could just do that in Premiere, but, you know, it is it is a separate separate skill set. It it is 2 people working together, technically. So

Jay Clouse [00:29:57]:
So it sounds like it'd be useful for the creator when you reached out to somebody or made a job posting about an ending role to have very specific examples of what you're trying to achieve, whether it's videos from your own channel or videos from another channel. So that even if you are unaware of some of the elements that are inherent in these videos, at least an editor looking at this and considering this role can see these different elements, understand if they're a fit, maybe have that conversation to say hey, there are aspects of this video that are a different skill set. Are you looking somebody who can also do motion graphics because that might not be me right you know part of this is putting a lot of onus on the creator If you're watching this, you may be thinking and feeling that way but I think it's actually a good thing because in my opinion the more educated you are when you start the conversation with an editor, I think it reflects really well on you as the creator as someone to collaborate with because at some point, you know, you're gonna be competing for high level talent. You know, you want if you have the resources, you want to hire people that are great to work with. And people who are great to work with wanna work with other people who are great to work with. So the more educated that you are in in preparing and understanding how you can have a good working relationship, I think it's worth doing that effort to start the the relationship up relationship off on a good foot.

Tony Santos [00:31:34]:
Yeah. And then I also would say too, even if, even if you don't know any of this, which, again, I don't expect anyone who isn't in the weeds to really understand how they grow, it's more just if you know how to approach even just your first editor with questions of, you know, I want someone to do this. I want someone to do this. And let's say the editor tells you, nope. Can't do it because x, y, and z, or I can't do it because of the money, or I can't do it because that's a whole skill set. Don't be afraid to ask, like, oh, who would I look for then, or what would be a more appropriate pricing, which everyone's gonna give you something different, but the the knowledge usually remains the same, which if someone says, $20 isn't enough, and then you go to another editor and they say, no. The price should be 30, at least you start gauging, like, okay. So maybe 20 to 30, 30 to 50, so your pricing will your experience in the pricing knowledge will increase.

Tony Santos [00:32:26]:
But then the more you ask about the editing, the more you can start picking up what it is that certain people do and don't.

Jay Clouse [00:32:31]:
Let's talk about workflow. If I hire an editor and we agree on the price, it's a project price. It's some number of 100 of dollars, per video. How should that workflow actually work? Or how should I expect that workflow to work? Because I can't just be like, okay. Go to work. I at least have to record material. Right? But what else should I be expecting to do before handing this off and saying, okay. Come back to me with a final product?

Tony Santos [00:33:01]:
Yeah. The most I ever asked for someone is be organized. So try to have some kind of file structure, which usually can be something as simple as a folder with the project name inside that project file, then you have, like, a folder for a roll, b roll, your pictures, your actual project files for whatever software you're gonna use. And then try to provide as many assets that the editor will need right away so they can just sit down and work rather than have to go Google a lot of pictures or consistently ask you for b roll. I mean, that's gonna happen regardless, but I think the more you just have things prepared for the editor, the quicker turnaround you can have. I know plenty of people who have given me a just just, like, the raw recording, and they're like, okay. Go. And then as I'm editing it, I'm like, oh, man.

Tony Santos [00:33:48]:
I'm missing so much b roll, or you keep mentioning this one product, but I don't even know what that product is. I never heard of it. So I have to just immediately start asking questions rather than being able to focus on the work itself.

Jay Clouse [00:33:59]:
What expectations should I have in terms of timelines with my editor and revisions?

Tony Santos [00:34:06]:
Those should definitely be established, even prior. I think that should be part of the negotiation. The reason for that is because I've known plenty of people who will tell me that this is a simple edit, that this will not take you more than 10 hours, and I agree to it. And then they don't factor in the revisions, and they expect a 100 revisions, which is just adding so much extra time to what was originally priced and negotiated. So not only is this person now, like, really, like, being I don't want to say picky because it's like it's a creative process and you can be as picky as you want technically, but at the same time I can't give you the world if we didn't agree to it. I would say if you're gonna talk about revisions, you should limit them, maybe, like, 2 to 3 at most, and it's for the editor's time as well as the creator's. But then also, it's so you don't get so perfectionist about every single thing you're gonna upload that you're more focused on the revisions rather than just understanding what isn't gonna work in this video, accept it, and then just improve upon it for the next one. Kinda like the 1% rule.

Tony Santos [00:35:11]:
You focus on one little thing each time, and you'll get better over time anyway.

Jay Clouse [00:35:15]:
Something that I think I've improved with over time that I had to learn by experience is that not all revisions are created equal either. You know saying hey there's a typo in this on screen text is a different revision request than, hey, this motion graphic you put together, let's actually change this structurally. It it might come with a ton of extra work and time that you as a creator don't realize. So in the revision process, I found that it's helpful to have a conversation when you when you do wanna make a change about hey, this is something that I see. Is the juice worth the squeeze here? Because sometimes if you have a deadline to hit, especially some revisions, you it's a hill that you don't want to die on because it's Right. It might not make the the amount of difference in the the quality of the video and the final product versus the amount of time and the the project setback that it would take to edit it.

Tony Santos [00:36:15]:
Yes. No. A 100%. It's it's like a running joke also with a lot of us where, like, the the picture could say, like, creator, hey. The the first draft is great, but can you change the music? And then the editor's crying, and it's because we synced all of our cuts to that song that now we just added 20 hours of extra work without even realizing it. Now that isn't to say that revisions won't make a video better or what have you. It's just the more you understand what you're asking, the more you can think to yourself, it is not worth spending another whole day editing this because our deadline's Friday. Let's just chalk it up to we'll improve on this next time and then just move on because then you're you're just kinda living the lesson then, which is that not every video will be perfect and you can't expect that.

Tony Santos [00:37:04]:
At least in my opinion, I'd rather make little bits of mistake that I can fix in my next video than being perfectionist on every single thing I work on.

Jay Clouse [00:37:11]:
What type of direction can you give the creators watching in terms of how to provide feedback to your editor because I think the the temptation is to be very, very utilitarian, very, like, direct, and just say this bad, change this, do this. But I imagine there are types of feedback that you receive that are more helpful and maybe even received more positively than other types of feedback so if you could share some of the feedback that is not helpful or some feedback that is especially helpful, I would like that.

Tony Santos [00:37:47]:
So a good example of this, can easily be with the way Tom and I work. So Tom is very he has a very good eye for, like, design, and I don't feel like my design levels are up to par with this, if I'm being honest, but I trust his feedback enough that it will make the project better. But what I don't want is feedback. For example, if I gave you, like, a project and this animation I don't know. Maybe the animation, like, a keyframe is off or maybe it just didn't hone that point across. I wouldn't want you to say, this is bad. Make this image come in faster, and change the background to blue instead of white. Like, there's questions in that that I'm gonna ask I'm, like, okay, so was the timing off? Did the, like, if I said that the point didn't come across, how did it come across then so I can kinda chalk it up in my head as, Jay likes things like this because Jay thinks that the animations in general look better when they're quicker.

Tony Santos [00:38:46]:
So I'm learning about you as a creator. So, like, the more feedback I get that is specific with good feedback, the more I can understand how to edit it in the future. Because if someone came in to edit a video for Thomas and they showed me it, I'm more than sure I will probably pinpoint 20 things that I know Tom will already say no to but that's because I got to learn him on a personal level with his kind of critiques So, yeah, just be specific and just try to explain why you feel a certain way about things because I have to learn about you, too

Jay Clouse [00:39:20]:
How do you as an editor think about preferences of taste for the creator that are different from yours? And when you indulge that versus when you say, hey, I disagree, and here's why. Because I think I think the best work is often when if there is a disagreement in some way there's a conversation you collaboratively come to the best decision But I think in a lot of freelance relationships, it's like whatever the creator says goes and we make that whether we think that's the best decision or not.

Tony Santos [00:39:56]:
Well, at first, I will tell I would tell the editors that are listening if they are, which is that don't take everything personally because at the end of the day, we're here for, you know, to help the client with the work. And I wanna do a good job to whatever metric that that client would say I did a good job in. But at the same time, I wanna build enough trust between the person I'm working with, again, I'll use Tom as an example, where I don't feel like just letting him know, like, hey, changing this graph, I don't think is really going to make it better and it's just going to waste time. I think we should focus on this instead. And once you build that trust, though, it like hopefully it signals to the creator or whoever you're working with that I understand what you're telling me, but I don't think that's really a problem. I think we should do this instead because I'm trying to think of the video project as a whole rather than just one little part. Because, again, it goes back to what we said that, like, not every round of revisions is is equal. And I think the more trust you can build, the easier it can be to just say, I will do it.

Tony Santos [00:40:59]:
I disagree. Here's why. And hopefully, even then the editor or the creator can learn from the editor about how an editor can see things. You know? And then at the end of the day, you're kinda mixing each other's skills, which is what I believe in, is a synchronization between the editor and the creator. I think that'd be always great.

Jay Clouse [00:41:15]:
You mentioned earlier that a lot of times when these relationships start, there's a promise of if we do better, you do better. What do you think about the timeline of when, creators offer a raise in pay? When should we expect our editors to ask for a raise in pay? How do we how do we think about that? How do we think about when when pay should increase?

Tony Santos [00:41:39]:
I mean, that's hard to say. I can't speak for everyone's finances, but I I will say if the business is doing better and this person is probably your only client, your only like, I don't know. I don't want to say employee, but, you know, person that they're working with, then it doesn't hurt to just give them more money. If someone's doing good, you they should be rewarded to some degree or another. And then also you have to remember, like, the editor like, if I see a channel if, like, if I was working for you and we worked together for a year and the channel went from 70 k to 200 ks. Then with that, there might be a view increase. There might be more sponsorships. And I don't have to be, like, a huge businessperson to know that we're probably making more money, and I wanna think that my contribution to the company is causing that, then it doesn't hurt to just say, hey, Tone, you know what? We are killing it.

Tony Santos [00:42:33]:
I can't afford to give you much, but what about an extra $200? Like, it just also shows that you do care about my well-being, and I don't have to worry about looking for a client that's gonna do that for me. So I just think, yeah, if you're doing better, the people you work with should get some of the reward for that. You know? Because especially if they're there in the trenches with you, I think there's nothing better than being able to reward the people doing the work with you.

Jay Clouse [00:42:58]:
I agree. From the creative perspective, I really try to hire for the long term as much as possible because it is so expensive to try and hire somebody new, do all of the the time of coming together and understanding like your visual style having a shared vocabulary understanding how you work together hiring new people is very expensive. So setting the relationship up for the long term is really something I recommend if you're looking to hire an editor. On our channel, Connor has a revenue split for AdSense for the brand deals we bring in. Is is that common? Do you see that in the industry?

Tony Santos [00:43:39]:
I've I've definitely have had people ask me about that, and I'm realizing it's something that wants to wants to get figured out more. It's just it's always tricky. Like, I I don't have enough knowledge on that front to say, like, yeah. That's great. I think it sounds great, but I also don't, I don't know enough to know, like, what a percentage sounds good or how to even do that depending on the channel you work with. Like, some channels are so niche that they make more, and they have better sponsorships, and then some are just so broadly appealing that the, you know, the the ad revenue's less. So, like, can they even afford to pay someone more as opposed to this niche channel? Like, it's it's just so varying in degrees that it's rough. But I will just say this, the fact that UJ allowed Connor to do that with you, to get that kind of a split, goes to show how much you value him, and I'm sure Connor feels valued from you from that.

Tony Santos [00:44:36]:
And that's just simple relationship tactics right there. Like, I care about you. Here's some more money. I mean, who won't be happy about that? You know?

Jay Clouse [00:44:45]:
Yeah. It's it's something that I want to continue to get better with. If I'm honest, it revenue split and profit split are not the same thing. And when I look at most businesses in the space most of them do profit splits because they recognize revenue often has to come in to pay expenses so I want you to be compensated for what we're doing on top of expenses. And so, if if I'm giving advice to someone out there, I would say think of it as a profit split rather than a revenue split first and foremost. But it's something worth considering because it aligns incentives. When you align incentives, I think it brings out the best work in people because they realize there is a direct impact between the quality of work that I do, the results that we get, and how that impacts my bottom line. And in the immediate term, does it feel more expensive? Of course, it does.

Jay Clouse [00:45:36]:
In the long term, though, I think it's I think it's potentially really positive.

Tony Santos [00:45:43]:
Yeah. I mean, there's one thing that you can't teach, which is I guess you can say loyalty, but I'll put it this way just to sum up. Like, if you show someone you care, I think that goes a long way, which is just, like, it's not a secret, so I can I can share this bit of knowledge? With Thomas Frank, not only am I his editor, but I do like I like I've mentioned, like, I do motion graphics for him. I know how to work the set. I know how to work all of our cameras. I know set design because of our work together. I know lighting. So because I bring so much for Tom whenever he feels like he needs it, then right now I earn a $120,000 a year.

Tony Santos [00:46:20]:
But that came through a progressional thing throughout 6 years of working together, And the last bit of it's that I will say about this is I have been offered, to get paid double. So someone offered me 200 k to go work for their channel, but I saw what they were making. I saw kind of what my life could be like, and that sounded way worse than my life right now with Tom and every long term goal that we're looking to achieve. And you don't teach someone long term thinking like that, but because I got so understanding of how things work, I see so much better potential with Tom in earning less less right now, even though I know I make great money, than just jumping ship to the next biggest paying client. And that's what I really want for both creators and editors to understand. Think of the long term, and can we both establish that that's a feature we want together? Because then you'll get someone like me who's like this for Tom. And I don't think that's very common, but I wish it was.

Jay Clouse [00:47:14]:
I'm glad that you shared that that example about your working relationship with Tom because at the end of the day, if you're in this for the long term, you want the best quality people. And a lot times, if you're getting started, you can't afford the best quality people. It's it's about helping to develop talented, aspiring, promising people into being great people. And then hopefully during that promise or that process, you've also developed a relationship that is exactly what you just said where actually I value this relationship and the work that we're doing together now more than the pure cash play that I could have elsewhere that might have a higher near term cash value. So, you know, as you're thinking about hiring a good editor, I think it's important to look for promise and to treat people well so that 8 years from now, you have your own Tony Santos on the team who, is like core to the company and knows your style, knows your language, and flexes into roles even beyond being an editor.

Tony Santos [00:48:18]:
Agreed. If someone's aspiring to do more, nurture it and see what can come from it. You never know.