BONUS: Creator Debates – Will Podcasts FAIL Without Video? | Jay Clouse vs. Joe Casabona

February 02, 2023

BONUS: Creator Debates – Will Podcasts FAIL Without Video? | Jay Clouse vs. Joe Casabona
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I’m excited to share with you an episode of a new podcast that I’m really excited about – it’s called Creator Debates with Justin Moore.

You may or may not know that Justin and I are pretty good friends – his business is called Creator Wizard and he helps creators find & negotiate your dream sponsorships so that you stop leaving $ on the table. And he’s really, really good at that.

Justin was my guest on Episode #112 of this podcast which was our first-ever VIDEO episode of this show on YouTube. He was gracious enough to be my guinea pig and I returned the favor with his new video show, Creator Debates.

Creator Debates features stupid arguments to help creators make smart decisions. In this episode you’re about to hear, I debate with Joe Casabona on whether podcasters should be focused on leveraging video or not. And as someone who recently made the switch from audio only to video, I’m arguing FOR video.

These guys are good friends, both members of The Lab, and this episode is a lot of fun. So, I’m sharing this episode in full with you today here on the feed. If you enjoy it, subscribe to Creator Debates in your podcast player OR, if you’d rather watch in video, the link is in the show notes.


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Jay Clouse  00:00

Hello, my friend, I'm excited to share with you an episode of a new podcast that I'm really excited about. It's called Creator debates hosted by Justin Moore. Now you may or may not know Justin I are good friends. His business is called Creator wizard and he helps creators find and negotiate your dream sponsorships so that you stop leaving money on the table. And he's really, really good at it. Justin was a guest on episode 112 of this podcast, which was our first ever video episode of the show on YouTube. He was gracious enough to be my guinea pig and I return the favor with his new video show creator debates. Greater debates features stupid arguments to help creators make smart decisions. I just love that tagline. In this episode you're about to hear I debate with Joe Casa Bona on whether podcasters should be focused on leveraging video or not. And as someone who recently made the switch from audio only to video, I'm arguing for video. These guys are both good friends. They're both members of the lab. And this episode is a lot of fun. So I'm sharing this episode in full with you today here on the feed. If you enjoy it, subscribe to creator debates in your podcast player or if you'd rather watch in video. The link is in the shownotes we'll get to that full episode of creator debates right after this.


Justin Moore  01:19

Why do you feel that Jay and I are idiots for utilizing video for our podcasts


Joe Casabona  01:23

watching? Watching people talk is that really compelling? Video


Jay Clouse  01:28

discoverability in audio is so challenging.


Justin Moore  01:32

Welcome to creator debates where we have stupid arguments to help creators make smart decisions. My name is Justin Moore, founder of creator wizard I'm your host and referee. Today we're talking about podcasts if you're thinking podcast, who the heck still listens to those. This is the age of tick tock anything longer than 30 seconds is blasphemy. People have the attention span of squirrels now come on. Well, would it surprise you that over 1/3 of Americans that's 104 million people listen to podcasts regularly. You're seeing massive companies like Spotify, spending hundreds of millions of dollars to acquire upstarts like anchor a free podcasting platform and gimlet, a producer of podcasts. But the thing that kind of sucks about podcasts is it's hard to find them. Unless one of your friends tells you. You gotta check out this dope new podcasts I felt all about underwater basket weaving, but enter YouTube and even Tiktok and Instagram reels for that matter. You are now seeing an explosion of podcasters starting to leverage video. YouTube even launched a dedicated podcast homepage recently. So I don't know about you, but I'm feeling pretty confused. Now. This is going to be kind of meta because when I was figuring out how to launch this podcast that you're listening and or watching right now I thought to myself, Do I really want to complicate things by adding video? That way I can just record all the episodes in my PJs, so I realized I needed to call upon some experts to settle this debate once and for all. So I rang up Jay Clouse founder of creator science host of the award winning 1 million downloads in 18 months creative elements podcast, which, by the way, was recently completely reimagined as a video podcast. But in the other corner, we have Joe casts a bona podcast coach and producer who helps podcasters become business owners at podcasts liftoff. He creates online courses for LinkedIn learning and hosts a podcast called how I built it. And Joe feels pretty strongly that Video Killed the podcast star. So by the end of this episode, you'll know whether or not launching a video podcast is the right move for you as a creator, how to speak with brands and sponsors to make more money with your video or audio podcast. And honestly, the only thing I really care about who is a better creator debater, Jay. So Jay, you have the floor first, why did you decide to start incorporating video into your podcast? And do you think that's mandatory? If you were starting over today, you have two minutes?


Jay Clouse  04:10

Well, after two years of an audio only show, I looked at my analytics and said, this shows way better than it would look purely from analytics. And it's not even that my analytics were terrible. But the amount of effort that I was putting into the show and the qualitative feedback I get from listeners, I was just constantly asking myself, How can I get this thing in front of more people? Because discoverability in audio is so challenging, nearly non existent. will things get better? Maybe but it really felt like if I was going to lean into discoverability one of the best ways I could do that for the show was being on YouTube in particular, that's the draw to video for me is that I can put the show on YouTube. So that was the plan. And we gave it a shot. Because the YouTube algorithm is fairly equal opportunity for good content, it seems to try to put your new video in front of at least a small sampling of random viewers early on. And if that performs well to put it in front of more people and more people and more people, and if you create a good video, theoretically, things can go pretty well, pretty quickly for your channel. So that's why I took to YouTube with the show. Is it necessary for everybody? Or is it the right move for everybody? I will say that I feel sometimes like doing a 60 minute interview show on YouTube is doing YouTube on hardmode. Is every podcast a 60 minute interview show? No. So it might even be more viable for certain shows, maybe solo shows shorter shows all that to say though, there seems to be a lot of opportunity for long form video on YouTube. 60 minute interviews are long form, I think we're moving more and more in that direction based on YouTube's recent stance on how they're going to lean into podcasting. And I think the future is bright. But it does require a lot of editing skills. So if you are not a video editor that will be tough, might require some help, which opens up its own challenges. So is it right for everybody?


Justin Moore  06:20

I guess all right. Two minutes. All right. Very, very compelling. I have a question real quickly, before we go to Joe. Do you personally watch video podcasts on YouTube? Sometimes? Yeah. And what contrast that which ones you watch on on video versus ones on your podcast player?


Jay Clouse  06:38

Well, I look for videos that have some additive element element to the show if it's just a back and forth with the guest where there's nothing really on screen, less compelling. But it also kind of depends on the mood. Sometimes I want to have the cozy camaraderie feel by having a second monitor and feeling like I have a couple of friends there. That can be kind of nice.


Justin Moore  07:02

Love it. Love it. All right, Joe floor is yours. Thoughts? rebuttal?


Joe Casabona  07:07

Look, podcasting can be really tough, it can kind of be a nightmare, especially for beginners. And then you're going to add video to it. So instead of just looking good, which you can do, or I'm sorry, instead of just sounding good, what you can do with like a 50 or $70 microphone. Now you have to worry about looking good too, which means you need a decent camera, and you need good lighting. And now that 70 bucks turns into 500 bucks. And that's just a you if you have guests forget about it. You want them to look good, and you want them to sound good. And I can tell you unless you're smart, like Justin and only interview creators, you're going to have a harder time getting them to look good. And for what to tick a box watching watching people talk is that really compelling video? My audience doesn't think so on YouTube? I don't think so. And when you tell somebody to start a podcast, and then say, well, you also need video. It's kind of like asking someone, Hey, do you want to play baseball with my friend, we need a pitcher. And then telling them that your friend is Aaron judge. Or it's like saying, hey, I need help moving, can you help me move? By the way, I'm moving out of the White House, or saying or offering to drive somebody to the airport and then finding out that it's not the 40 minute away airport. It's JFK in New York City during rush hour, which actually happened to me. My point is adding video to an audio only medium moves the chains a lot. And especially for a first time podcaster it makes the barrier for entry considerably harder, without much benefit. Now, Jay mentioned right discoverability in audio is not good. And that's that's right. That's that's a good point. But YouTube has been leaning into audio only more. In March of 2022, a PowerPoint leaked talking about how they were going to get into podcasting. They rolled out a feature for YouTube premium where you can listen to videos outside of the app. They have YouTube music. And more recently, towards the end of 2022, they released a document talking about how they're going to leverage audio only ad insertion, which tells me that YouTube a video platform is also seeing the benefits of having an audio only content area.


Justin Moore  09:36

Got it very,


Joe Casabona  09:37

I talk fast. So I see the rest of my time.


Justin Moore  09:39

It's good. It's good. So I mean, really the thing I want to know most though is Why do you feel that Jay and I are idiots for utilizing video for our podcasts.


Joe Casabona  09:51

I think that I mean, so you're putting words in my mouth but I think that Video, Video and Audio serve two different purposes. And I think as as you both kind of insinuated just like watching people talk back and forth, is not compelling, right? Like, I don't know about you, but when I go to I sat on a panel at a conference recently, when I go to panels, it's like kind of a snooze fest, right? You need something to break up the monotony. And maybe you can do that with editing. But I think that if it's a conversation, it's more convenient for the listener, right? Because they can do other stuff while they're listening. And it's, it's easier to produce as well, which I think we'll probably get into later.


Justin Moore  10:42

So let's actually get into round one, which is all about creativity. So Jay, I want to go to you. Do you feel that having a video podcast allows you to paint with a broader creative brush and why two minutes?


Jay Clouse  10:53

Oh, totally. There are so many times within every episode that we have on the show where a guest will bring up something as kind of an aside, and we're able to add depth to that interview by showing B roll without audio on screen at that time. So right now we're editing an episode with Hayden Hillier Smith he was Logan Paul's former editor has a podcast called The editing podcast. And there are times when he calls out to videos he did with Logan are there times when he said one of his inspirations are Colin and Samir, were able to give a lot of depth and context on screen without needing to pull audio from those videos to both make a more compelling video product products, but also help people understand things more. There's even a point in that interview where I refer to his co host as Josh incorrectly and on screen, we can put asterisk, Jordan, so even allows me to cover up for some miscues in that way. It is a broader canvas, though, like it is a broader canvas of do we need to cover more ground because we are showcasing more material that can be paralyzing, that can be scary, it can be intimidating, it can also be really, really great. So you can look at it as a gift, you can look at it as a challenge, you can look at the difficulty as a nonstarter or you can look at it as an opportunity. And we've chosen to look at it as an opportunity and a gift to be able to do more within the same confines.


Justin Moore  12:21

Is this. So Joe, I want to take the Ceu do you think that this is from the creative standpoint that this is too intimidating to someone who's just starting out? They're gonna have to master both video and audio? Versus hey, let's just get out the gates let's have this be an audio show. And then you can tackle video later. Obviously, I'm an idiot, because I'm trying to tackle both at the same time. But I want I'm curious, your thoughts on this? Two minutes?


Joe Casabona  12:43

Yeah, I think I think it's tough. And it could be intimidating, right? Because it's, it's more than it's more than just having to talk, which I suspect a lot more people are comfortable with, right, but you got to get camera ready. Right? I'm like sweating that I didn't shave this morning. My five. I was gonna say I was gonna say, but I didn't want to bring it up. But yeah, this and this is like 4k, I think everybody can see. Right? So like you want to, if people are worried about their appearance or their office, or they don't have the the ability to have a better setup. And yeah, I think it could be really intimidating for them. And that could say, well, if I need to do video, I'm not going to do a podcast because people are already saying like, Oh, if if it's complicated, I don't really want to do it. Anyway. So I think the barrier for entry gets a lot higher that way,


Justin Moore  13:35

which is the I can't remember which presidential debate it was. But there was the one where it was like the the advent of the television nurses and JFK, Nixon and JFK versus radio, right. And people who watched it on TV versus radio thought that, you know, different different candidates one right people


Joe Casabona  13:51

who listened on only the radio thought Nixon sounded more confident and sounded better. People who watched it on TV, thought JFK one because he looked better and was less sweaty. I think that was like, I mean, that's like the big thing. And he he also refused to wear makeup, where JFK, you know, had the, whatever it's called the pancake makeup or whatever. And that made him look better on TV. All right,


Justin Moore  14:16

there it is the end of round one. So it is a great opportunity to let's move into round two, which is all about production. Because Joe, you, Jay, you mentioned something about how you made a slip up during the recording and you can, you know, correct that in post, whether it's on screen or maybe you know, with a typical audio podcast, you could go in and rerecord lines and all that stuff too. But like from a production standpoint, like actually, Joe, I want to go to you with this first, which is I want to know why you believe that having an audio only podcast just generally is a lighter lift. You know whether that's you're trying to tackle it yourself or you're outsourcing to an editor. What is your thought process on just production in general?


Joe Casabona  14:57

Yeah, I think you No, I was gonna mention something about where it comes with creativity on, like CGI being a crutch, right? And I think when you strip away to just audio, CGI being a crutch in new movies today versus like, actually relying on good content, right. And I think that you have a similar effect with with audio, right, you have less to work with. So you need to be maybe a little bit more creative with keeping the audience engaged. And that goes right into production, right? Because, like we said, Being audio only, you only need to worry about the audio when you're working with video, you need good lighting, you need a good camera you need to always be on right. If if Jay and I started to get bored as you're talking, and we start to drift, like, that's gonna look bad for us, right? Just like presidential debates when George HW Bush checked his watch, that like ruins the debate for him, right. And so it's, I think it's with no video, it's less, it could be less draining. But then with editing, you don't need to worry about syncing audio and video either. You don't need to to creatively cut and you can do those audio pickups, right? There's sometimes they're called dropping sometimes they're called Audio pickups, but I can with the video like you gotta make you gotta have the right exact pose, or you need to be wearing the right shirt and the same clothes, right? Yeah, exactly like and so with audio, you don't have to worry about any of that. It's a lot easier to do those pickups later. And so the truth is that creating a podcast is a grind either way, and you want to be consistent above all else. And unless there's a compelling reason to add video, you don't want it to hinder your ability to stay consistent.


Justin Moore  16:47

Interesting, man, you are like, right at two minutes every time I haven't had to use the buzzer on you very impressive. Real quickly, just as an anecdote, as I was behind the scenes, as I was prepping for this, this podcast, I'm using Riverside. And I was doing some test recordings, right, as any good, you know, aspiring podcasters should do. And I was having a heck of a time trying to figure out how to sync the audio and the videos, because I want to have a super high resolution. I'm trying to do this in 4k. And so I'm just saying, My honestly, I couldn't figure it out. And so I was like, I'll just fix it in post. So that was that was the that was the conclusion. But as you're right, there's there's these non trivial production factors when you're trying to do two different content formats. Jay, I want to bring you in here. Thoughts on the production process? I know you, you know, hired an editor want to hear a little bit more about that. And just kind of what is the complexity? How is the complexity changed. Now, given that you previously did an audio show for the last several years,


Jay Clouse  17:39

definitely more complex, definitely more expensive, because I did hire an editor. The other side of that, though, because I'm not a video editor. And I didn't have that skill set, I had to hire somebody which actually removed me from the production process. So I personally spend less time on the production week to week than I used to. And I think that's really compelling. Definitely more complex in general, and that does run the risk of okay, if I lost my video editor, or if he had life happen, what happens the show that puts me in a pretty difficult situation. It's difficult to keep the trains running on time. But you know, with anything, you weigh the pros and cons against the the lens, that is your context, and you make you make a choice, and I decided to move forward in this way.


Justin Moore  18:28

What would you do if, like, pull that thread? Like, what would you do if your editor said, Hey, can't work with you anymore? Or hey, I'm super sick for a month? Or like, how would that like? What would you do just got a curiosity,


Jay Clouse  18:39

I would have to hire a new editor. Or I would rethink do I want to continue to do a video show and if so, in this format, we have basically a shared language for how we're creating this thing. Now, it's no longer just a me thing. It's an us thing. If I brought somebody in. Sure, I would want them to look at the past episodes and try to model that a little bit. But I would also want it to be an us thing with that person. So we would probably change the the format of the show a little bit, which took some time for us to work out how to do not even just the stylistic choices, but the logistic and operational decisions for how we manage together. So certainly a more complicated lift. But as I said a little bit earlier, anytime that there are challenges like this, I started reframing them as opportunities, because that is more challenging, fewer people will do that. There'll be fewer high quality video podcasts starting every year, then there will be audio podcasts. And I think that is a competitive advantage in the near term and long term.


Justin Moore  19:39

Joe, what do you what do you think about Jays point there about that? It's a competitive advantage because there's less high quality video shows coming out each year.


Joe Casabona  19:47

I mean, I think that's an absolutely true point. Right? Because, you know, I tried doing video pod you know, I tried maybe this whole bias me, but I tried experiments with video podcasting and I didn't really do much in the way of changing the content, right? So I'd record into my app. And I would make some edits here and there. I'm familiar with video editing. And with descript, it was pretty easy to kind of edit both at the same time. But like I said, unless, unless you're doing something special for YouTube, right, that makes the video more compelling, then it's probably not going to gain traction, at least right now. Right? Again, YouTube's YouTube's plans for podcasting. Probably go beyond what is there today. So I think that like adding that extra level of complexity, adding that extra cost is great for maybe creators like you and me, who are the three of us who make money off of our content, right. But I tried to convince some of my students to hire an audio editor, because they said that's the most time consuming thing. And, you know, they they're worried about the cost of that as well.


Justin Moore  20:59

So I want to double click on this, because for purely selfish reasons. J, like, how do you I think I saw you in a tweet mentioned your workflow to I think was Brian Harris and you sounds like after the video editor is done, you actually have a separate audio engineer that masters the final audio edit, is that right? Is that? Is that something you need to do? Or is that something that you could try to find someone to do both?


Jay Clouse  21:23

I would be wary of trying to find someone who could do both because they're very different skill sets. And I want top of the line quality on both sides of things. So the audio engineers involvement, his name's Nathan, he's incredible. I've been working with him for more than four years now. It's a much lighter lift on his end, because at this point, the first step in the process is actually doing essentially a full edit of the video episode before we export the audio tracks for the engineer to mix without removing any space that we can just reattach. So yeah, that's involved at the end. And a lot of that, sure, he will, he has some presets to make my voice sound even silkier and better. But he also sounds pretty silky already. I don't know. That's the microphone. But it also does a lot for making the volume consistent, because we do pull in a lot of B roll. And that might be clips from the guests YouTube channel and saying so it's really about making sure that we have a consistent listening volume as much as anything else.


Justin Moore  22:28

Okay, real quickly before we move on to round three, like short form. I mean, like, it's hard to deny there's lots of big podcasts that one of the primary reasons they've decided to go into video was so that they could try to grow on Tiktok or Instagram reels. Jay, I know you've dabbled with that. Joe, I'm not sure if you have but either of you any thoughts on how shortform plays into that into this whole conversation?


Jay Clouse  22:53

I think there's opportunity there. The conclusion that we've circled around on is sure in a perfect world, we are clipping out a ton of clips from the video that we can put on short form video. There are some creators who really play a quantity game on this. I know Danny Miranda will clip 20 to 30 clips from each video episode he does because his perspective is he doesn't know which one of them will do well, you shouldn't post them all. We one have opportunity cost because I have one video editor, he's doing the short form as well. So we either hire a short form person, or he takes his time doing that instead of getting ahead on the workflow. The other thing that we've come around to believe, because we did a little testing on this, clipping out a 62nd bid from a video podcast works, it's okay. But these short form platforms really want something that was created natively for that platform. So we think that there's more opportunity to expand our video strategy for short form making dedicated short form videos. And there's kind of a spectrum there. There's an in between, we did one clip from my interview with Derek Severs, that we put on all these different platforms, but we went out of our way to put a lot more on screen effects and B roll to make it feel more native. And that clip was posted months ago and it gets engagement every single day. Somehow the algorithm knows like this is doing pretty well and it grows in views


Justin Moore  24:21

every single day. This is on YouTube tick tock shorts, which one? I mean, honestly,


Jay Clouse  24:26

I see it on Instagram reels because vacations when somebody likes that real but it's I've also noticed it in the analytics on YouTube as well. Haven't seen it on tick tock I don't know that tick tock cycles back that far as well. But YouTube and reels has been pretty effective.


Justin Moore  24:42

Interesting, Joe, I want to bring you in and tell us why using short form content is is stupid in a second but first a word from our sponsor. All right, Joe, tell us why using tick tock Instagram reels YouTube shorts not really that effective. If for a podcaster? Well, I'll tell


Joe Casabona  25:03

it to you from the from the audio only standpoint, right? And the audio only standpoint is that audio Graham's just not compelling video, right, like watching text fly across the screen or a waveform like people don't care about that that's not compelling video. What is compelling video and this is going to add more to your workflow is, what I would do for a little bit is I would record a video right after the interview, vertical short form and say, Hey, I just got finished interviewing Justin Moore, we talked about this, he told us about our rope method. If you want to check that out the episodes live right now click the link whatever, like whatever, whatever call to action, right. And that's me kind of summarizing, going through the top three takeaways, which I write again right after the episode. And again, that's extra work. I didn't I don't have a strong following on Tik Tok. So I didn't see a good return on that. What I did see was on YouTube shorts. When I released like little tips that I got from the show, I didn't even have to use the guests audio, right? I just said, this is a tip, I learned that from here. Here's the link to the episode if you're interested. And that again was a lot easier for me to produce, I would record it with my camera app, and then upload the video separately on each platform, right because they like it coming from them. And that worked for me for a while.


Justin Moore  26:30

Interesting. It's almost like like a tweet thread all the all the thread boys out here being like I've read 17 books, and here's the biggest 10 takeaways, right? And that is the end of round two. Let's let's get into round three. Because I think every creator watching and or listening, what they actually care about is monetization. Right? Come on, let's get some change over here. Right. So Jay, be real with us. How much money are you making now that you have a video and your podcasts? And I want some dollars and cents? Preferably screenshots of your bank statements? Or also an acceptable answer is how much debt you're in now because you had to hire an editor.


Jay Clouse  27:09

Not even not even a joke.


Justin Moore  27:11

No, but actual actually like and like how are you? So let's talk about that. But also, how are you? How are you pitching sponsors now that you have a video component two minutes? To be


Jay Clouse  27:19

honest, I haven't done a lot yet. We did work with Riverside out of the gate since we use Riverside to record that show. But one thing that I'm really bullish on about YouTube is, you know, I pulled open my audio analytics for my episode with Justin Welsh. And since the weight the week of posting that episode, Justin Well, she basically an audio you see a giant spike when it's released, and then a slow trickle and then basically nothing ongoing unless somebody shares it in a newsletter. So it's basically that curve on YouTube. It's been kind of a steady build, actually, like the episode has way more life long, long term. So the difficult thing about pricing sponsorships, I need to go back through brand deal result brand deal wizard because I'm trying to figure out how I package this because I've never sold this before. And typically in audio, you sell it on a CPM basis, and it gets cycled out. And that's not true in video. So in the immediate term, I've actually been using my ad brakes to promote my own stuff. The the first ad break we've been using to promote my newsletter, the second ad break we've been using to promote the past 100 Plus episodes of audio only content, so that as these videos get binged when new viewers find them, more and more people are being exposed to my newsletter and the audio show as well. And to me, I can't put $1 value on that yet. But it's been a compelling use of that ad space. As I figure out what my sponsorship on YouTube what that strategy looks like.


Justin Moore  28:49

super interesting. Joe, your turn what how do you approach monetization? Like with your audio only podcast? And like also, I'm curious, like, what do you say to brands? Who asked if you can do other stuff for them, like videos on social media or whatever? Yeah, absolutely.


Joe Casabona  29:04

So I mean, if people have here heard me talk before, no, I approach monetization monetizing a podcast in five ways. It's the Smash framework, sponsorship, membership, affiliate selling and helping, and the last two are a linchpin of podcasting because those are great ways to establish your trust and expertise. And that's a more it's generally more intimate than video. People are taking the time to listen and headphones, and they're going to trust you more so you can sell your own product a little bit better. When it comes to sponsorship though I want to key in on something that Jay said there with with CPM. I've never sold based on CPM. If I sold on CPM, it would probably be like 50 to 60 bucks. I sell based on a type of campaign that Justin you talk about in brand deal wizard. Brand awareness campaigns. Again, people trust me and they trust they want to know more about the things that I trust. And so when people say hey, you're iCast sounds interesting, but I'm really more interested in video. Video is good content to have. And so maybe this contradicts some of the things I was saying earlier, but I have a YouTube channel. And when I sell my sponsorship packages, I always include at least one video. And what I'll usually do is make the video and then make the ad campaign, point back to the video and say, like, Hey, if you want to learn more about this sponsor, I did a video over on my YouTube channel where I highlight the top three features for creators. And now I'm leveraging both audiences and pushing one audience to the other. And that's going to be really beneficial because it increases my overall reach for the brand.


Justin Moore  30:43

Fascinating. J with respect to this, do you do you believe the CPM pricing model in general, that advertisers at least from you've been doing this for a long time, like do you do you believe that that people, brands and sponsors and prospective partners are more open minded about other types of compensation structures given now that there's all these other things that, you know, you or Joe that you could do for them? Like maybe in your community or in your newsletter, whatever?


Joe Casabona  31:11

Can I Can I ask a follow on to that? Yes, please, I'll just want to caveat that my ads are baked in to they're not dynamically inserted J, I don't know if yours are dynamically inserted, which you kind of have to sell based on CPM?


Jay Clouse  31:23

Yeah, it kind of depends on who your advertisers are. Because there are advertisers who just basically explicitly play the CPM game. And they're typically represented by agencies, who are the ones really playing that game, and so on. creative elements, podcast, and even my newsletter, and a lot of the sponsors that the ConvertKit sponsor network are pulling in, most of those are through channels and people who are accustomed to and mostly only interested in doing the CPM game, kind of play another game. Sure. But I've actually set up my very lean business in such a way where I am outsourcing the sale of my ad inventory. And so I'm gonna play whatever game those people want to play.


Justin Moore  32:11

Right? Right. So it's an opportunity cost, like you said, right? It's like, if you wanted to bring someone on your team to, you know, handle it, whether it's a VA, you train them in your outreach or sales methodology, and you do that, and but it's a decision you made, right? I think that that's an important point, right?


Jay Clouse  32:26

Yeah. And most of the time, when I have explored more of a bespoke campaign, they're interesting, they might have a higher dollar amount in the immediate term. But they typically also come with more planning, sometimes, like entirely new pieces of content is is desired. So I prefer right now to go with what has a lower opportunity cost in terms of my time, and work with those established channels who want to play the CPM game.


Justin Moore  32:57

And that, my friends, is the end of round three J. Joe, it's time to make your final appeal. Okay, on the other end of your camera, on the other end of your microphone, is a creator who is relying on you to make this tough decision. So convince them why video is either awesome or terrible for their podcast. Joe, you're up one minute. Look,


Joe Casabona  33:21

creating content is a tough gig. There's a lot to think about from topics to actually creating the content to the editing and promoting. There's a lot to think about. The beauty of podcasting is that with an audio only medium, you can create compelling content faster, and more affordably. Plus your reach could be better. People like to listen to podcasts when they're doing other things. Driving, cleaning, mowing the lawn, or cooking I would listen while mowing the lawn I have noise cancelling headphones. It's more convenient for them. And so they can listen at their convenience. You take that away when you introduce a video component. And if you want to make videos, by all means, make a video. But if you want to make a podcast, all you really need is a mic and your voice.


Justin Moore  34:20

Wow. Two seconds to go. Jay, you're up one minute.


Jay Clouse  34:23

I want to tell you about a guy named Jeremy marry who has a channel called Backstage careers. It's a podcast but it's also a YouTube channel. on that show. He interviews people who are working behind the front facing creative talent. He had a video it was it was an interview, a long form interview and with Caleb Ralston you may not recognize his name, but he was behind a lot of Gary V's social growth on tick tock in particular. And also lately he's been working with the Hermoza he's on their social strategies, that long form 90 minute interview from Jeremy is currently at 174,000 views on YouTube that's far and above all of the other videos on his channel. And that can happen with any video that you upload to YouTube. That does not happen in podcasting. And that's the type of thing that I'm trying to tap into. Because I believe the quality of all of my episodes is really high. I believe they're aligned in a way that if you find one, you're going to look at more of them on the channel. And I want to have one thing hit that introduces people to the rest of my world. And I think that the investment in YouTube is an investment in that opportunity.


Justin Moore  35:37

Wow. There you have it. Jay, hit us with the call to action. Where can people learn more about creator science and follow you on social media?


Jay Clouse  35:45

Go to creator I'd actually love for you to check out creative elements, the podcast, since you're a podcast listener, you can find that on YouTube by searching creative elements or going to at creative elements, FM. And anywhere you hang out on social just search my name, you'll find me there.


Justin Moore  35:59

I want to quickly say, you know, tell everyone why I love following you, Jay, because you are one of the most thoughtful people I know you give super objective feedback. You're a super talented writer. And I'm really proud to call your friends. So thanks for being here, man. Hey, thank


Jay Clouse  36:13

you. I appreciate that. And likewise,


Justin Moore  36:15

yeah, Joe, hit us with your CTA.


Joe Casabona  36:18

All right, if you want to learn more about me, you can head over to podcast And there you'll find a link to my social accounts, you'll find a link to my podcast. And because I've been talking about starting a podcast so much you'll actually get a little free webinar I put together for y'all. So that's podcast


Justin Moore  36:36

Here's a quick little like amazing behind the scenes Joe actually literally created a customized landing page for you all for this podcast. So I don't know that's pretty impressive. I and just Joe like why I love following you is that you're super generous with your time your automation skills are off the charts actually kind of terrifying. And little known fact the reason why my audio sounds so crispy right now and I have these idiotic sound effects is because Joe sold me his old road caster Pro. So thank you, Joe. I appreciate both of you. And you dear creator watching and or listening. This podcast is brand new, and I'm desperate for some feedback. Did you hate it? Did you love it? Who won this creator debate? Please let us know on social media by tagging app creator debates, tag Joe tag, Jay, and please write it in your favorite podcast player. That's the thing, right? That's the thing guys, you guys are podcasters right. And finally, shameless plug. If you want to get paid sponsorship opportunities, make sure to sign up for my free weekly newsletter at creator Alright, that's a wrap. Until next time