Jay Clouse  00:00

Every day we watch incredible performers who just make things look easy. But what is it that makes the great creators really breakthrough? Is it luck, hard work, or some creators just born with natural talent?

Guy Raz  00:14

I think this concept of talent is wildly overrated.

Jay Clouse  00:19

That's Guy Raz. Guy Raz is an independent producer who has been described by The New York Times as one of the most popular podcasters in history.

Guy Raz  00:28

Most people that you and I know, have talent actually. The difference between the people who become so called great creators and those who may not is that maybe really what their talent is, is just a fierce pursuit of their craft.

Jay Clouse  00:47

He's the creator of the wildly successful podcast How I Built This. All together Guy's programs are heard by nearly 19 million listeners each month. But in this conversation, I'm talking to guy about his newest podcast called The Great Creators, where he talks about creativity with some of the most celebrated performers of our time.

Guy Raz  01:04

Hearing Tom Hanks talk about feeling like like even had suffers from you know from like, imposter syndrome is unbelievable. One of the greatest living actors, probably one of the greatest actors in of all time. I mean, two time Oscar winner talking about, you know, not really knowing what it means to be authentic.

Jay Clouse  01:23

So in this episode, you'll learn what Guy has learned from these great creators, the similarities between high performing artists and high performing entrepreneurs, the role that luck plays in success, and the trade offs that come with having high ambition. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode. As you listen, you can find me on Twitter or Instagram @jayclouse. Tag me, say hello, let me know that you're listening or leave a comment on YouTube. And now let's talk to Guy about the inspiration behind his new show, The Great Creators.

Guy Raz  01:25

There was a weird show that you probably remember it's I think a version of it still round called Inside the Actor's Studio. And it was on a bra I think Bravo or I can't remember which one it was this, this this hose to is amazing host who's no longer alive. And he would do these conversations at like the City University in New York or Pacey. I can't remember. And they were, he would have like, the biggest actress in the world, like Angelina Jolie in front of like a student audience. And, you know, or, you know, just the biggest actors you've ever seen. And they would come and it was this very weird show, but it was, and he had this pristine questionnaire, where we would ask very similar questions of every guest. And they were really, really interesting. And I was always fascinated with this concept of like, can you interview celebrities, but but take take that celebrity veneer off of them? You know, and that's really where I, the sort of the idea began, many, many years ago, I used to work for NPR, and I was a host of a show called weekend all things considered. And the great thing about being the host of that show is nobody listened to it. And so that meant that I could do anything. I mean, obviously, we had an audience, but a very small audience, because it's on at 5pm on a Saturday and 5pm on a Sunday. So we could do anything we wanted. And because the weekday news shows, we're just focused on news. I would interview like massive celebrities, because we had time and you know, I could get them on NPR. And and, you know, that was a long time ago. That was 15 years ago. And I really miss that. You know, for the last 10 years of my life. I've been doing business shows, which I love. But I really miss having those intense, intimate conversations with very famous people, where you get an insight into their mind in a way that you wouldn't see, when they were doing like a junket interview, like, because most celebrities, when you see them interviewed, they're literally going from like, interview, to interview to interview to interview. So it's like, they're promoting a movie, and they're gonna do like 28 minute hits. And then you're gonna see a clip on Entertainment Tonight and the clip on this show and a clip on local news. And then they might do you know, the Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, they might do the Today Show in the morning, a New York Times interview, and that's it. And it's focused entirely on that, promoting that thing. And that's, that makes sense, right? It's part of a whole industry, there's publicists, there's the studios, they all want to get that out there. But the problem is, is that we don't see the intellect, the thought process, the brilliance of the people behind the character. And you know, so many actors, so many singers, so many artists, performers, they're really smart, even though many of them didn't go to university because they you know, they started their careers right out of high school or whatever. They're really intelligent. They're really interesting. They've learned a lot and they've had experiences that have given them insights into the world of creativity. And that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to find people who were off cycle. So not necessarily promoting a show or album or anything new, just like, you know, talk to somebody who just happens to be like, in the studio recording or, you know, maybe in between projects and just like get them into the studio. And kind of talk to them as a person as a human rather than as, like a celebrity, where they have to kind of have this veneer and, you know, put on this show, which I understand it's part of, of who they are. But they're also a regular person, too. And that's really what I wanted to try to, to kind of penetrate and and in exposed to an audience. And so that was the beginning. That was the premise of how we came up with this, this concept.

Jay Clouse  05:45

I love that because that's exactly what comes across my listen to the show. And what I absolutely love about it, because you're right, a lot of times, the people that you interview on the show, we only get access to them in their hyper produced recorded art, or in these junkets as you're saying, where it's almost like a postgame interview, where like, nobody actually says anything. In those interviews, there's almost like a set of a dozen templates, and the players can choose from one of them. So I'm curious about almost incentive structures, or people's sensitivity to this format. Because, you know, if I'm an actor, and I'm not used to this very stripped down very honest, very direct conversation, where I'm almost taking off the mask that is me of the as the actor, or the protective of that, how do you put them at ease? Yeah,

Guy Raz  06:34

I mean, it's a great question, right? Because, you know, part of the brand of, of anybody in the public eye is, is, you know, to live up to that, that persona, right. And that's, that's important, right? That's part of, of the product that they're selling. And, look, the reality is, most actors are genuine, you know, most people that you see in the public eye, they are themselves, but it's a heightened version of them, even me, you know, I'm not a famous celebrity, but I do interviews, and I've got, you know, podcasts that millions of people listen to. And when I do those shows, I'm at my best, like, right now talking to you, Jay, like I am, of course, going to be at my best because that's when I like myself the most. But like, there are also times where, like, I'm arguing with my wife, or I'm yelling at my kids to get their butts in the car. So we could take them to school, and I'm not at my best, you know, so of course, you know, actor, but it's not about sort of taking the mask off and unmasking them. And it's more about giving them a chance to show that best side of them. You know, an example is I interviewed Tom Hanks, and he was on the show. And I interviewed him and I was given an hour to interview him by his publicist, which, you know, perfectly fine. I mean, normally, we like to have an hour and a half, but I was given an hour. And the interview actually went on for two and a half hours, because Tom Hanks when I was, you know, when the hour was done, I was like, Tom, thank you so much. I know you've got to go and really appreciate it. He's like, Hey, I'm having fun. If you've got more time I've got all the time you need. And that and the thing about that was, he actually said to me in the interview, said, You know, it's I'm paraphrasing, but he said something like, you know, it's very rare when I could have a conversation. And again, I hope this doesn't sound self aggrandizing and, you know, but basically, what he said was, it's very rare if when I get to have a conversation like this, because usually what what I do is, you know, there's a PR blast that goes out and then I'm doing a quick hit and it's like usually I'm asked a question that is you know, just designed to get a quick news hit like you know something about his life or his marriage or as children that isn't really relevant and it's he's got 45 seconds to answer that and then it's gonna be a headline in you know, some website or blog and that's it and this in the conversation it was so awesome when he said it because it's exactly what I'm trying to do. He's like, you know, this conversation is where I can talk about the craft what I do why I do it, how I become a character, my my vulnerability you know, hearing Tom Hanks talk about feeling like, like even had suffers from, you know, from like, imposter syndrome is unbelievable, one of the greatest living actors, probably one of the greatest actors of all time, I mean, two time Oscar winner, just an a giant, right, like a Cary Grant, Jimmy Stewart giant level actor talking about, you know, not really knowing what it means to be authentic. Like sometimes he asks himself and I asked that, like, it's amazing to be able to have that conversation with people in a way where they can be a bit vulnerable, but also really let us in to their world in a way that I think builds a connection between them and the audience in a deeper way. And so I think the value proposition for the actors and singers and artists and musicians that come on the show is that that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to build a 300 60 degree portrait of who they are. And I sometimes make that exact analogy. I'll say, Look, I am a portrait artist. You know, imagine it's an 18th century and you're in the studio, and I'm going to paint a portrait of you, and then it's going to be on a wall in perpetuity. And so the interviews that I, I offer the person that I'm asking them, when they come on, I say to them, Look, we do extensive research, you're going to come into this interview, and we are going to take this really seriously like this is all we do, we only make audio podcasts. This is a conversation that will last hopefully, for all time that that people can hear in 10 or 15 or 20 years, and they will know your story. And it will live isn't it will be a living, breathing archive of your life. And so if they think that's interesting, then then then they decide to do it. And if not, then they say, not interested,

Jay Clouse  10:55

that Tom Hanks interview was so good. He kept using a term I'd never heard before. It was Aqua poise, to describe like the state of flow that he asked to get in to do his best work. And he kept saying it. I was like, I have never heard this word before. But it's so good. Yeah. So again, to the intellect that these people have that we don't know, you know, you're not going to hear Tom Hanks using equipoise. In many conversations.

Guy Raz  11:19

I mean, Tom Hanks, who, who is, you know, he never finished college. He's one of the most intelligent people I've ever interviewed in my life. And I've interviewed 15,000 People like, he is a giant, and in terms of the way he thinks about the world, and the way he thinks about his craft, and how and how he just thinks about his characters, and how just intellectually curious he is. And I think that, you know, while we may know a little bit about that, I don't think we really know a lot about it. And we don't know, how he thinks about his work, and how that actually can help us think about what we do.

Jay Clouse  11:57

And you mentioned, you know how a lot of times these performers, given that they're in the act of performance, they are a heightened version of the version of themselves a lot of times, and a lot of the creators that I talked with who are at the earlier stage of what they're doing, sometimes they struggle with what they feel is a disconnect between who they have to be online to an audience and who they are. So there is something really relatable and comforting to get this second experience of these people that we've we've seen in movie and television and film in such a relatable way the the interview did with Kenan Thompson, you know, Kenan Thompson is just like, so energetic, almost like a caricature on SNL sometimes, and he was a totally different more like a subdued, thoughtful, intentional guy in that interview that you had, it's it's so fascinating, just to see the layers that everybody has. And sometimes we think when we have visibility into people's lives, that we get a whole sense and we just don't.

Guy Raz  12:57

And Kenan Thompson is such a great example of like, how, you know, you or you or anyone, you know, listening to this or watching this podcast would think he's so funny, you know, he plays he's facing characters on SNL, the longest serving SNL character, actor, and yet, here's a conversation where we are talking about the creative process and how he actually finds his creative spark and creative muse. I mean, really, that episode, in some ways, is like a masterclass in this notion that the the lone genius is a myth. It's a huge myth, right? Obviously, I'm talking to one person on the show. But if you hear Kenan Thompson's interview, it's clear that the way he creates characters and the way he builds scenes, is in a, in a team of people. And he can do his best work sitting in a room with other people who and he's feeding off of their energy, and they're feeding off of his energy. And so when I'm interviewing him, it's like, it's not Kenan Thompson, you know, this funny, energetic actor. He's, of course, very funny. And he does a few funny things in the conversation, including a couple of great impressions. He's talking about how he works, how he writes, how he how he comes up with these concepts, and builds his characters. And it's about building an environment where you can actually feed off the energy of the other people around you. And this applies to every working environment. I mean, you know, this J through what you do. I know this through what I do. I'm not a lone wolf, I have got a team, you're not a lone wolf, you've got people that you bounce ideas off and work with. It's the only way to make something that has impacted and that that has resonance. You know, there's no such thing as just coming up with something on your own. Putting it out into the world and you know, having no feedback and no you know, in Nobody else there. I mean, it's it's, it's very unusual. And that's what I love about that Kenan Thompson conversation because he really is epitomizing this idea that creativity comes from intense collaboration.

Jay Clouse  15:13

The other thing that stood out from that conversation in particular was how much he talked about the role of mentorship when he got to SNL and how the female cast members brought him in and how Tracy Morgan was there giving him tips that also spoke to me of wow, this is, you know, a legend in the space longest serving cast member, as you said, and he's giving so much credit to other people who took him in right when he got there.

Guy Raz  15:35

And the other it's so it's such a great point. You know, he talks about Tina Fey talks about Amy Poehler all these people who were mentors to him when he was, you know, a baby actor on SNL now, 20 years in 20 seasons in, he's the mentor. And it's a really important, you know, point that he makes, which is, when you start in any career, and certainly in a creative field, you have to find mentors, sometimes it takes some, you know, oftentimes they're not just going to come to you, you really have to find them, you've got to cultivate a relationship. And he talks about how he did that. And then over time, you it's like a relay race, you know, you get the you, you get the baton, it's passed to you, and then you become the mentor. And that's where he is now in his career. It's a really, really important point. Because mentorship, and I found this in my career, it actually makes me better at what I do. Kenan Thompson is a better writer, better script writer, a better comedic actor, his timing is better, because he's actually teaching other people how to do it. And when you do that, it makes you better in your own performance. And I find that as an interviewer. And as a writer, when I talk about what I do, when I work with other people, it actually makes me better at what I do,

Jay Clouse  16:56

after a quick break guy, and I talk about what separates good creators from great creators. And later, we talked about the similarities that guy sees between artists and entrepreneurs. So stick around, we'll be right back. And now back to the show. It's so true. Sometimes I have to remind myself that language is a technology, you know, and so to be able to take an implicit understanding we have in our brains and explain it to somebody else, we have to push it through the technology of language, which just requires a certain level of deeper understanding, to choose the right word, literally choose the right words in the English language to portray this concept to somebody else.

Guy Raz  17:35

I mean, totally. And, you know, you think about, you know, how important language is not only for the writer, but also how it's used, you know, by the actor, and how they take the language and turn it into, you know, personify it. You know, and this is one of the things I love talking to actors about, which is how do you become a character? You know, I interviewed Nathan Lane, who is one of the greatest stage actors of all time, right? He's one I don't know how many Tony's he's one. He was once called a critic once called him, The Entertainer of the decade, right? And you would think that he would have loved that, right being called The Entertainer of the Decade by a critic, but he actually really hated it. And he hated it. Because He thought of himself as a serious actor. He didn't think of himself as an entertainer. Later on, he would he would come to terms with that and understand that was actually a good thing. But as a result of that, and it happened, you know, it happened, I don't know. 15 or 20 years ago, he decided that he was going to seek out very complex roles, because he had done a lot of comedic roles, right. And so he decided to do Iceman Cometh, you know, one of the hardest plays, you know, he plays Hickey and Iseman. He went on to do Roy Cohn, in Angels in America, which is a very dark role. And that was very risky for him to take the words in that script and to personify those characters to bring them to life. And to become something totally different than we expect. You know, if you if you watch Broadway, if you know Latham lane, or even if you've seen him in films, like The Birdcage, you know, he's funny, you know, but then he plays these other characters who are very challenging, and very difficult. And that's that this idea of challenging yourself, you know, forcing yourself out of your comfort zone is a theme that comes up again and again and again, in these interviews, where it's not just the characters they pick, but the decisions they make, and I think and I that this resonates with me because making a really risky decision with your career, or really pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. I know sounds like a cliche but it's critical and and I know that it's scary I mean scary for it's been scary for me when I've done it really scary and risky and you know, all the the anxiety that comes with it, but it Every case even when it hasn't worked, the the payoff has been huge like down the road, you reflect on it, you're like, Okay, now I see why I did that. And I'm sorry, get super excited about this. But I want to tell you, it just reminded me of one. One other conversation I had was with Stephen Colbert, he probably took the riskiest decision of his career very late in his career in his 50s. Right, and that was to become the host of late night. I mean, he had a hugely successful show. on The Colbert Report, a lot of people thought that, okay, now your life is going to be easy. You're going from playing this like wacky, blowhard TV guy, you know, fake character, to being a talk show host, this is going to be no problem, you just show up. In fact, the transition from from being Stephen Colbert on the Colbert Report, to being the real Stephen Colbert, on late night was massively challenging because playing a character as he describes, is relatively easy. You're you're not you, you're just you're acting. But when you have to be you, as a person, and you have to be entertaining, that's really hard. And he had never done that. He'd never in his life, had to just be him and carry a show. And in fact, the first year, you might remember this, and he talks about this, in our interview, the first year of the Colbert, a late night was a disaster. I mean, they were really suffering in the ratings. The reviews were terrible, it was stilted. They were trying all these things that show weren't working. And essentially what happened was at a certain point, his executive producers now Chris Lex is now running CNN basically said to him, Listen, let's just try something new. Just don't worry about trying to be everything to everybody, just be you. If it means you want to be political, if it means you want to be you want to just talk from the heart, just do it. And he did. And not everybody likes Stephen Colbert, some people think his shows really left wing, or you know, biased, and I get that, but he found his voice, by just leaning into being who he is, which was also a risk. And it's amazing, because he took that job in his 50s in his early 50s. When you know, usually that's like, when your career starts to go in a different direction and his career's just gone up. So I love this idea of challenging, you know, challenging your, your comfort zone. And, again, it comes up again, and again, and again. And again,

Jay Clouse  22:37

you've been describing all these challenges that are relatable, the interviews themselves are very relatable. So what is it? Do you think that separates the people like you interviewing the great creators, versus people who don't make it that far in their careers? You know, we hear we talk, we hear them, you talk to them, they sound like they have the same problems we do. And they think through things similarly to how we do so what is it that helps them get to that next level?

Guy Raz  23:03

It's really, really, really straightforward. I mean, look, there's no question that, that they all have an element of, of talent, right. But I think this concept of talent is wildly overrated. I mean, most people that you and I know, have talent, actually, most people that we encounter, have a talent, even if they don't recognize it, right. And the difference between the people who become so called great creators and those who may not, is that maybe really what their talent is, is just a fierce, like pursuit of their craft. So in other words, to kind of boil it down to a simple phrase, they do the reps, they do the reps. I mean, you hear the story of Tom Hanks. And Tom Hanks spent the first few years of his life of his career Forgive me when he was in his 20s doing summer stock theater, summer stock, Shakespeare every single day. He would get up, he would perform, he would get in Cleveland, actually, he was in Cleveland, Ohio, right, performing every day. And then he moved to New York and he does more theater and more theater. Judith light, who became internationally famous as Angela Bauer on the sitcom who's the boss, she was an actress. One of her first roles was as an actress on one life to live. She had vowed never to do a soap opera because she thought it was beneath her. She wanted to be a stage actress. She wanted to be on Broadway, but she couldn't get roles on Broadway. She she she got a an understudy gig on one life to live. The production crew liked her so they offered her a rule and that rule turned into like a six year gig. That got her two Emmys. When she told me he was the reason why she was able to become a really great actress and now she's you know, she does Broadway she's Been on, you know, huge shows. She's won Emmys. But the what enabled her to get to that place was getting to a set every day, one life to live and performing acting everyday because a daytime soap is a five day a week show. So for years, she had to memorize scripts, she had to come and show up and do the reps. And that's what it's about. I mean, even people like Ben Gibberd of Death Cab for Cutie, you know, indie rock God, right for albums that have reached the top 10 on the Billboard charts. The guy writes music every single day. He's now in his mid 40s. You know, he still produces outstanding music I just saw him perform in Oakland, California. He sets aside two to three hours every day, but in chair to write music. Does he have to do it for the money? No, he's got plenty of money. Does he have to do it for the fame and accolades? No, he does it because he's still he's looking every day still searching, seeking out ways to get better at his craft. And that's the key. You know, it's about showing up and working and working and working, even when it's challenging, even when there is no work. I mean, Billy Porter, again, hugely successful stage actor fashion icon. I mean, there were years, it was almost a decade, where he had no work. I mean, he was really out of work. But he still did the reps, he took classes in screenwriting, he showed up for auditions, he did small parts on off off off Broadway shows, you know, whatever he could get to do the reps to continue, and continue and continue until, of course, at a certain point, he hit a tipping point. And now of course, he's very, very famous and very successful,

Jay Clouse  26:50

I want to double click on a phrase you said a moment ago, which was getting better at the craft, because I think a lot of creators are getting started, they hear the advice that they should be consistent. And they hear the advice that you should get reps. But I don't know that they quite hear it from the angle of, and you also need to be focusing on getting better in those reps. So I'd love to hear from you. Do you think that improvement is a natural byproduct of getting the reps or to the people that you've interacted with, in your own experience? Do you need a deeper drive and improvement at the same time,

Guy Raz  27:28

I think it comes from two elements, right? So doing the reps, obviously, hugely important, but at a certain point, you know, like with exercise, you hit a plateau, or you know, your muscles just can't lift a certain amount of weight. You know, if you lift weights, and you hit a plateau, there are things that you can do to try and get beyond that plateau. And when it comes to the creative process, it's not just about doing the reps every day, but it's about what I mentioned earlier, challenging yourself, forcing yourself to be in situations that are not comfortable. And that are not easy. Because when you do the reps for so many years, no matter what you do, whether you're in marketing or advertising, or you, you know, you write copy for for a corporation, or, you know, whatever it whatever it is you do, right in your creative pursuit, you're going to master it at a certain point, you know, whether it's a certain number of hours or years, you will you will get you will gain mastery. And mastery is really important. And it just takes time. But at a certain point, you know that mastery just plateaus. And so the question is, how do you break through and that's really one of the things that we seek out on the show, too. It's like, we want to talk to people about what they do, to break through to challenge themselves, you know, like, you know, somebody like, I don't know, a good example is like Carrie Brownstein? Okay, Carrie Brownstein was like an indie rock darl you know, like a darling of the indie rock scene in the late 90s. And even today with her band, Sleater Kinney and very successful indie band, huge fan base, awesome music, but she has done so many other things. Carrie Brown is probably best known for being the CO creator of Portlandia with Fred Armisen, you know, this wildly weird comedy show that millions of people have come to love, you know, this is not the world she came from. She was a rock star, you know, but that doing that work, made her better at her other work. She's also a writer. She's also an interviewer, she's, you know, she does a lot of different things. And they all feed on each other, you know, and that's, that's one of the things that I love about about the show is that everybody I interview is involved in many, many different things. It's, it's a little bit of a, it's not too much of a leap, but it's an there's an interesting analogy. Years ago, I read a book about Charles Darwin. And, you know, Charles Darwin, obviously one of the great greatest minds in human history, right? Origins of man. And, you know, he wrote about human evolution. And what Charles, the genius of Charles Darwin, according this book was that he actually worked on multiple projects at the same time. And those projects took him years, like, he was really fascinated by worms. And he had a greenhouse, and he was really interested in like minerals. And he was just interested in like a bunch of different things like, you know, archeology, whatever it was, even the origins of man, like that was one of his interests. But each of these things, he like, chiseled away, you know, little by little, and he would move from one thing to the other. And they would actually help him get better on the other thing, so like when he was focusing on his theory of evolution that actually helped him understand this plant thing he was working on. And I find that with many of the people that have been on the show, they do versions of that, like, you know, they they've got some film work that they're involved with, or they're writing, or they're producing, or they might have a business or a product of that they're also working on

Jay Clouse  31:09

in crafts. I just listen to your episode Zooey Deschanel. Exactly,

Guy Raz  31:13

right. I mean, she, she's got, she's a musician, she's an actor, a singer, songwriter, extremely talented voice, you know, she's got this, these businesses, she's got podcasts. And all of those things also generate the kind of energy that makes you better at the other thing. So it's not just a matter of doing the reps, it's a matter of, and I'm not saying you should overwhelm yourself and feel like Oh, my God, I'm useless. If I'm not doing 20 things, it's not that it's about even taking small steps to push yourself out of your comfort zone, you know, to maybe try something radical, or bring on a perspective that initially, you might think, might challenge you or admit, but it should challenge you. You know, bringing, asking people for feedback, trying to collaborate with people that you might not normally collaborate with, like, it's those kinds of things that build that gets you to the next level. And I, I am convinced, by the way, and I'm talking about and I've interviewed, on this show, we've had Alan Alda, we have Andy Garcia, you know, actors who are older, I'm convinced they get, they are still getting better at what they do, even, you know, later in their careers, and they feel that way. And when you interview Ryan Tedder who's written, I don't know how many number one hits for other other musicians, and then hits for himself as the frontman of One Republic, he's getting better every single day. And he gets better by challenging himself by working with different artists by taking on really difficult projects. And that's, I mean, that's exciting to know that every single day, you can actually get better

Jay Clouse  32:53

when we come back guy, and I talk about the patterns he sees in top performers, and some of the hidden dangers behind ambition. So don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. And now back to the show. The great creators how I built this different shows, but they strike me as not super different premises, more different type of person, different industry, what similarities you see between performers, artists at the top of their game, and business owners, because in the world of digital creators, they're often one in the same.

Guy Raz  33:26

There's a lot of overlap in terms of how I think they think about the world, right? And it's about taking risks, putting yourself out there and deciding that you are going to withstand the naysayers and the people who are going to tell you throughout your career, you're not good enough your idea sucks. Or, you know, your your whatever it might be. I mean, I I interviewed Billy Eichner. Right. And Billy Eichner for most of his career, up until just last few years was told this very thing. He was told that, you know, he would go to audition after audition. And just be be told, you know, you're not yet the right fit, you know, or you're too gay, or you're to this, are you to that, and he kept at it, because he really believed that he had something to say, and that he had he, he felt like he could really make a contribution to the world of acting and the world of of entertainment. And he believed this firmly. And it wasn't always easy. I mean, there were times where he felt really, you know, sad and discouraged. But that's the thing that I find in creative people. And I would say on how I built this, I don't think the the people I interviewed are not creative. They're incredibly creative. They're building companies and brands, these actors, musicians, performers, artists, that we have on the great creators, they are also building a brand that just happens to be around them. And that's also hard. And that also requires a lot of perseverance, persistence, challenging yourself, doing the reps, collaborating, all of the things that we know, are connected to creativity.

Jay Clouse  35:15

What do you think about luck? What's your relationship or feelings about the concept of luck as it relates to people performing at this at this level?

Guy Raz  35:22

You know, it's, as you probably know, I asked this question on how I built this. And I've asked this question since the start of how I built this when I launched it seven years ago. It's a controversial question. Some of our listeners hate it. Some of our listeners, most of our listeners love it. I've always asked my guests at the end of the show, you know, how much of your success do you attribute to luck? And how much do you attribute to to skill hard work, your intellect, etc? It's not really designed to be a binary question. I'm not actually looking for an answer that is like, oh, it's luck or skill, or it's 5050. It's really designed to be a, like, a way for the the interviewee to reflect on this conversation we've had over the last few hours, you know, you when you hear how I built this, or the great creators are only hearing, hearing a cut down version of a much longer interview, but we've had this intimate conversation. And so I want to just get a sense of like now that they've recounted their own story, which very few of us get to do in our lives in detail. Now, you've reflected on it, you know, what do you think, in my case, I mean, I, I'm a big believer in, of course, you know, you know, hard work and putting in the reps and really thinking systemically about how to build a career is important, but chances also, hugely, you know, a huge part of it. I mean, you know, sometimes you can place yourself in situations that can Hance your luck, I interviewed Diplo, who's probably one of the most successful music producers and DJs in the world. Did he become Diplo purely out of luck? No, I mean, he worked and you will hear this interview, he worked so hard to build a world where, you know, he was preeminent. But he also ended up going to Philadelphia to school at Villanova by chance. And that was before, you know, that was at a time where Philadelphia still is, but certainly then was a very tight knit small group of creatives. And he got to know Questlove, you know, before Questlove was internationally famous, and he got to meet other artists there Santigold, who happen to be based in Philadelphia, and that was really important for him as a young, unknown producer to get access to people that he could then produce their work. He was DJing at a club one night in London, because he got a gig. Because somebody was in London was visiting Philadelphia and saw him DJ at a small club in Philly. He was invited to DJ in London that night, in London, a young rapper comes up to him and says, I really liked what you're playing, and they exchanged numbers. And it turns out to be Mr. Mia, and they decide to collaborate. And to make a long story short, they make paper planes, which becomes the biggest global hit in the world. Was that luck? Yeah. But he also made his luck by really grinding. And so they are interconnected. For sure.

Jay Clouse  38:24

Yeah. And sometimes they hear these stories. Tom Hanks had a similar story in the interview where, you know, he met somebody through an interview process, and that's why he went to Cleveland. And that kickstarted a lot of things. For him, it's easy to walk away from hearing that and think, man, if that didn't happen, it probably wouldn't have happened for Tom Hanks. But that's probably not true. You know, there's probably some future moment as well,

Guy Raz  38:45

he would have happened in a different way. I mean, he he actually met this guy, because he failed. He didn't get a role. He really wanted to do summer stock theater in Sacramento, California, there was a famous Shakespearean festival there, he didn't get a roll. And he ended up meeting, somebody said, I know about this thing in Cleveland, and he went to Cleveland, and he was in Cleveland for a whole summer. And then in Cleveland, you know, somebody said, Ameesha, go to New York. And then he went to New York and by chance, and you know, within two years, he got cast on Bosom Buddies. Of course, that was lucky. He was in the right place at the right time. But he was also the right person for that role. Would he have been tommix today without that happening? I think so it just would have happened in a different way.

Jay Clouse  39:25

There's also something to be said about having a belief that something will break your way so that when the door opens, you do that exercise and making yourself uncomfortable, and you walk through it, and you don't think well, this will be nothing because it won't happen for me.

Guy Raz  39:39

Yeah, I mean, this is a theme that comes up again and again on the great creators on how I built this, which is, you know, luck happens when you when your eyes are open, and you're actually you know, you are doing as much as you can to control your destiny but ultimately, like I'm a believer that it just there are things beyond our control. We can't Obviously control our health outcomes we can't control we have some control eat right you exercise like you will have. But you know, there's there are diseases that we cancer, heart disease like genetic diseases, that there are things in life we can't control, we just have to accept that. It is what it is. But at the same time, if you are, if your eyes are open to opportunity, you can increase the possibility of, you know, getting lucky, a lot of people who succeed, it seems like their work ethic, and the sacrifices they're willing to make are so high. You know, sometimes when I think about my own ambition, and are reflect on, what sacrifices Am I willing to make? It almost feels like,

Jay Clouse  40:49

I'm not willing enough to be so obsessed with the thing in order to make it to the highest highs of the mountain. Given that you've interviewed 1000s of people in this position, I'd love to hear your perspective on is it possible to reach the summit and still have a balanced life with multiple priorities?

Guy Raz  41:11

I love the question, because I think that the answer is, it depends on what you mean by Summit is reaching the summit. You know, I recently read an article about a very successful hedge fund manager in New York, who died at the age of like 77, or 78, and actually took his own life. You wonder you read that article, and you think, Well, this guy was a billionaire. He had everything you could imagine a home in the Hamptons, and a penthouse in New York. And why? Why would he take his own life? And of course, I would never ask that question in a in a in a take that question beyond that, because suicide is something that we don't understand. Right? It's it is a it's a it's a it's a disease. But but it's a question. It's like, what does that actually what does success actually mean? I have interviewed founders who have had wild success and had built products and brands that have had huge cultural impact, but have dysfunctional families and don't have great relationships with their kids. We've talked about it on the show. I think Elon Musk has built products and services that have had massive cultural impact. I mean, everything from Tesla SpaceX to solar work that he's done a giant right. But you know, is he is his personal life, you know, would you want his personal life? And maybe again, I'm not judging it. I think that he might say, Yes, I'm really happy with it. But, you know, he, I don't believe he's had a stable marriage. You know, I think he had several there. And again, that may not be what everybody wants, but it's all depends on how you define success, right? For me, the most successful thing I can do in my life is to raise children who become self sufficient, kind, contributing adults. I've got a 12 year old and a 14 year old that is like my number one goal and ambition like how I built this great creators was involved while on the road all the shows I do I love them they're super important to me but like my measure of what I have done in my life, it's like what what King to Charla says in, in, in Black Panther, the measure, he says something like, if you haven't prepared your children, for your own death, you failed as a parent. You do remember this quote from Black Panther? Yeah, it's an amazing quote. He says it he says you if you haven't prepared your own children for your death, you failed as a parent. And I think about that all the time. What an incredibly simple distillation of what it means to succeed, at least in my view.

Jay Clouse  43:54

Well, let's close this out by reflecting on on what you as an artist, as an entrepreneur, you know, after all of these conversations, a true masterclass that you're continuing to build for yourself, how have you adjusted as a performer or as a business owner based on the aggregate of these conversations?

Guy Raz  44:15

I mean, I like my listeners to how I built this or wisdom from the top or the great creators. I am a learner too. I am. I am along on this ride with everybody who's listening. Like I am just I just happen to be in the engineer seat, the training of the of the train, like I'm driving the train, but I'm also like, I'm also like, I just have a front row seat in this movie and happened to be like, you know, sort of driving the train, but I'm on the journey with everybody. Everything I do as a businessman. I mean, it's a weird word to call myself but I guess I am I've got two businesses that I run. But you know, as an entrepreneur, as a creator, even as a parent, I learn from the people I interview and talk to. I am like a seeker and a searcher like every one who I hope comes to my shows. So I'm like, you know, it's why I love like Bill Simmons, Bill Simmons, a super fan. And the reason why so many sports fans love Bill Simmons is because they can identify with him as a superfan. He loves sports so much. He loves Boston sports and people love can understand. I love learning from these people so much. And so I'm just, I'm just another person on that ride. And I couldn't do what I do, as well as as well as I do it without all of that input. If anybody if there's like the ultimate beneficiary from all these interviews, just learning from them. Think it's me. And hopefully the, you know, people who listen as well.

Jay Clouse  45:54

I love this conversation with Guy. It is so rare that you get to speak with someone who has met literally thousands of the most successful creators of our time. If you want to learn more about Guy, you can visit his website at guyraz.com And you can subscribe to The Great Creators at thegreatcreators.com. Links to all that are in the show notes. Thanks to Guy for being on the show. Thank you to Connor Conaboy for editing the video for this episode. Thank you to Emily Clouse for making the artwork for this episode. Thanks to Nathan Todhunter for mixing the show and Brian Skeel for creating our music. If you'd like this episode, you can tweet @jayclouse and let me know. And if you really want to say thank you, please leave a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. Thanks for listening and I'll talk to you next week.