#239: Justin Moore – What if feels like launching a book and an in-person event at the same time

Justin Moore [00:00:00]:
You're telling me that I have to carve out 2 hours out of my day for the next year? That's a huge amount of time for me. I could be making videos, short form content, but it was a bet that I was willing to make because of this belief that I have that, like, I really believe that this book should exist.

Jay Clouse [00:00:28]:
Hello, my friend. Welcome back to another episode of Creator Science. I am back this week with my most frequent guest, one of my best friends, Justin Moore. Justin Moore is a sponsorship coach who has generated over $5,000,000 in brand partnerships As both a full time creator since 2014 and former influencer marketing agency owner, he brings unique insider knowledge of how brands evaluate and select their ideal partners. Through his school, community, and latest book, Sponsor Magnet, Justin shares proven frameworks for attracting, pricing, and executing lucrative brand deals with a mission to help creators big and small land 1,000,000 paid sponsorships. When it comes to sponsorships, Justin is the guy. No one knows this better than him. He's He's been on the show a bunch of times now, and these episodes are much less an interview and much more a conversation between 2 creators who are very comfortable being honest with one another.

Jay Clouse [00:01:18]:
And I know a lot of you enjoy this format. This episode though is special because this week, Justin's first ever book is now available for purchase. It's called Sponsor Magnet, How to Attract, Price, and Execute Your Dream Brand Partnerships. I was an early reader of Sponsor Magnet. I enthusiastically endorsed this book, and I think it is a must read for any creator interested in doing sponsorships. In this conversation, we get really candid about the highs and lows of writing this book, including launching it just ahead of his first ever in person event, sponsor games, which I will be at in March of this year. The first 100 listeners of this episode can actually get their own edition of sponsor magnet for free. You just have to listen to the episode to learn how to beat one of those first 100 listeners.

Jay Clouse [00:02:05]:
As always, I'd love to hear what you think about this episode, so tag me at jklaus on whatever social platform you use most. I'm personally trying to get better at Instagram, but I'll see it just about anywhere. Just tag me at jklaus. But that's enough for me. Let's jump in and hear from Justin. Justin, welcome back to the show. Good to see you.

Justin Moore [00:02:28]:
What's up, Jay? I'm glad to be here, man. Another one of our hang seshhes. I don't know if that's plural. But I mean The

Jay Clouse [00:02:35]:
studio is different, both in location, and we've got this fantastic new addition over your right shoulder here.

Justin Moore [00:02:42]:
Yeah. The studio is different. It's not quite dialed in yet. The reason the studio is different is I moved from California to Minnesota, which was a very, very big move for for me and my family. I've only ever lived in California. So my mom and my sister are are here in Minnesota, so we made the big move with the family. So that's been consuming my life the last couple of months. So that's been good.

Justin Moore [00:03:04]:
But, yeah, the other big thing over my shoulder, as you mentioned, is my first proof copy of my new book sponsor magnet. So that's crazy.

Jay Clouse [00:03:12]:
What's it like? What's it like holding that book in your hands?

Justin Moore [00:03:15]:
Man, it's really complicated, dude. Like, I cried when I opened the package for the first time. It was really weird. Like, I actually recorded it. And I saw my on my Instagram. I April recorded me opening it. It was like a super weird moment that felt like it was the everything had been leading to this moment. Not to make it sound super cheesy, but it was like I don't know, man.

Justin Moore [00:03:37]:
It was like writing the book was the hardest thing I ever I ever did for a lot of different reasons. I talked about this recently on a livestream that, like, the entire process of writing the book, I was, like, doubting the process of, like, is this even the right decision for me and my business?

Jay Clouse [00:03:51]:
Why?

Justin Moore [00:03:52]:
Well, I have a lot of, like, fear that, like, writing the book is gonna be, like, kill the business, frankly. Like, because it's weird, dude. Because I know that's not rational, but, like, in my head basically, I have put everything that I know into the book. I didn't hold back anything. You know, if I look at my business, the primary revenue drivers are, like, my course and my coaching. Right? And a big reason why I didn't wanna write this book for a long time was, like, well, if if I put everything in the book, why will anyone wanna hire me? Or why will anyone wanna go through my course and things like that? And I I have employees who I am providing, a livelihood for, and I care a lot about them. And so there's a chance that writing the book is, like, disruptive. It doesn't help that, like, Tiago Forte wrote this big blog post and thread about how writing the book, like, tanked his course business and all that.

Justin Moore [00:04:45]:
His business is a bit different, obviously, than mine, but I don't know, man. The entire 7, 8 months of writing the book, I was every day, I would sit down. And in addition to, like, writing it, I would just be thinking, like, is this the right decision? Like, should I be doing this? And there was no right answer. So I don't know, man. I'm I'm very excited about the book, But if there's still that big question mark of, like, is this the right move?

Jay Clouse [00:05:05]:
I think it's the right move. In your position, I would probably have similar thoughts. But if you don't write this book, somebody's gonna write this book. This book doesn't exist yet. Right? And so it will exist. Like, the time for this book has come. I think you timed it perfectly. I think you're the absolute right person to write the book.

Jay Clouse [00:05:22]:
And the thing is like information wants to be free. Everything that you know has also existed in fragmented places all over the Internet anyway. I think this just puts you in an incredible category, in an incredible position. And with the Wizards Guild, this is a different model than just education. And I think this is gonna drive the Wizards Guild like crazy. So I think it's a very smart move.

Justin Moore [00:05:51]:
Thank you. I think yes. I mean, in my mind, theoretically, that's the move. Right? It's like, okay. You know, everything I know here's a book, and then you can read the book and never hire me. Like, absolutely. You can, like, get a lot of results from just reading the book. But the thesis is, like, you know, there's gonna be a a fraction of people who read it, and then they get an email from a brand.

Justin Moore [00:06:11]:
And they're, like, I don't know what to do about this particular situation. I don't know how much to charge. I don't know, you know, x y z. And so, yeah, the thesis is, like, there'll be a percentage of people that we could serve in in other ways. And and to, you know, the my point about Tiago, he doesn't have a coaching program. He doesn't really have other, you know, ways in which you can learn from him beyond the cohort based course that he, you know, taught for a long time. And so it is a bit different than his. But again, dude, it's it's still nerve wracking.

Justin Moore [00:06:35]:
It's also wrapped up. It's really complicated, dude. It's wrapped up also in the fact that, like, I'm taking multiple big swings at once. So, like, the book comes out January 21st, and then my in person event is March 16th to 19th, which is also a huge undertaking to, like, bring this thing to life. And so, like, I'm taking a lot of significant, not just, like, philosophical swings, but also financial. Like, I'm putting a ton of my own money on the line, you know, 20 k for the venue. It's gonna be 10, 15 k for the catering. It's gonna be, you know, 5 figures for videography.

Justin Moore [00:07:08]:
It's good. Just like a lot of big ticket stuff that, like, I'm just kinda praying and hoping that it all works out because I really want these things to exist. It's just scary, dude. Like, it's just really, really scary.

Jay Clouse [00:07:19]:
Which is why most people don't do it, which is why most people don't get the result that's on the other side of it. I think a lot about the people who, like, do these things, these, like, uncommon, big, scary things. Like, they're the only ones that actually get the outcome on the other side of it. And I'm on the other side where I typically don't take those big moves that you're taking. And so I'm looking at it like this is really smart. This is really great. It's probably stressful and painful right now, but you're gonna have a crazy q one that's gonna probably, like, alter what the rest of the year looks like. Like, what do you think happens q2 through q4?

Justin Moore [00:07:56]:
Dude, I don't so I was talking with, you know, our our mutual friend, John Meese, who, you know, has written many books, you know, about a lot of these fears I have and a lot of the stress I'm feeling right now. And he he gave me this good analogy that he learned from somewhere else, which was like you have seasons of inhaling and exhaling. And looking at, like, the last, you know, year, basically, is like this giant deep breath in of, like, you know, writing the book and getting the conference and changing the course from a CBC to an on demand thing and, like, all these, like, big, you know, changes that I'm making to the big and new things that I'm creating from whole cloth. And then the moment that that, like, q two hits, basically, right when the event is over, I'm hopefully looking at that as, like, this finally this huge exhalation where, like, you know, I'm not gonna launch anything new, and and it's gonna be the season of optimization, you know, of, like, tweaking things, making them better. And so, like, I don't know. I'm hoping although I did just think of something else I'm gonna be launching in q 2. But it's I just can't stop, man. So yeah.

Justin Moore [00:09:01]:
I'm hoping that I'm hoping that that q2 is a bit of a of a dude, I I feel like the book is gonna come out, and then there's gonna be this, like, period where it's, like, people are reading it. And so I don't think I'm gonna see if there is a negative impact to the business, I'm probably not gonna see it for a couple months. So I still feel like I'm not gonna really know, like, what it's gonna do to the business for a good 6 months.

Jay Clouse [00:09:23]:
I don't know if this is gonna make you feel better or worse, but in my studies of book writing because I'd rather study book writing than do the work of writing a book.

Justin Moore [00:09:31]:
That's not true. You you you have done some chat GPT, like, structuring, you know, exercises.

Jay Clouse [00:09:37]:
Yeah. I'm not gonna write that book though. Oh. So in my studies of this, the thing that I've heard several times from people that I, like, really trust on this subject is it's actually a full year before you know if the book has legs on its own, which I think is positive or a negative thing. Meaning that, like, month 3 hits and you're kinda like, I don't know. Like, give it another 10 months.

Justin Moore [00:10:01]:
That's not comforting at all, actually. Yeah, dude. So much of this, like, online business thing, online creator y thing, there's just, like there's so many unknowns on the other side of these decisions, whether it's, like, the right or wrong thing to do. Maybe that's just entrepreneurship in general, especially the book. I feel very vulnerable. Like, I'm putting myself out there. I'm, like, making a lot of bold claims. I'm making, you know, I'm, like, putting my foot down and being, like, this is the way you should do things.

Justin Moore [00:10:30]:
It feels somehow way more permanent than a YouTube video or a blog post or a newsletter or something. It feels like, for better or for worse, this is my legacy now. There just feels like so much pressure to that. I don't know, dude. If you caught me, like, a week ago, I'd be like, yes. This is amazing. This is the best thing I ever did. But I just I feel like I oscillate between these 2, like, like, periods of, like, extreme optimism and extreme, like, is this the right decision? So I don't know, man.

Jay Clouse [00:10:59]:
Sounds like entrepreneurship.

Justin Moore [00:11:01]:
Yeah. It's a dude, it's like okay. Let me share the counter to this, which is, like, this was the right book for me to write. I you're right. I'm the right person to write this book. I have no dog in the race. I'm not a manager. I don't I'm not taking a cut of your deals.

Justin Moore [00:11:15]:
I've been a creator. I've run an agency. I've seen both sides of it. I've coached 100 of people. These are not, like, frameworks that I made up and didn't test on anyone. I know that you're gonna get a transformation if you read this book. So it's like, all of those things are truisms, and yet, I still feel doubt. And I don't know.

Justin Moore [00:11:32]:
I just feel like it's important to, like, voice these things publicly sometimes because

Jay Clouse [00:11:36]:
I feel like a lot

Justin Moore [00:11:37]:
of us go through this even when on the outside looking in, it feels like we know what we're doing.

Jay Clouse [00:11:41]:
I think it's normal. I was listening to a conversation that James Clear had on Ryan Holiday's podcast this last weekend, which is like, it's like my Super Bowl. James Clear and Ryan Holiday talking to each other. This is this is incredible. And James, I know because he also lives here in Columbus he has a couple of young children now and so he's talked about what that's done to like his time availability anyway for the last couple of years he's had this mantra he said of fewer moves bolder strokes And so you're taking, like, a couple of big moves here. And I think the risk is not, like, just really leaning into them. The wheels are in motion. You're doing them.

Jay Clouse [00:12:19]:
Now you just gotta do them, like, 211. Mhmm. Mhmm. I think you will.

Justin Moore [00:12:25]:
Yeah. A 100%. Like like, I am fully, fully committed to the book shtick right now. Like, I I am, you know, not just through launch. Like, I have no problem. I don't anticipate ever getting tired about talking about the book. I mean, that's the the major casualty that I've heard. You know, our good friend, Matt, from Lulu has shared, like, a lot of anecdotes that, like, authors just kinda give up talking about their book because they're so done with it after the process of how many years writing it.

Justin Moore [00:12:51]:
And so they're just like, well, I put this into the universe now and, like, whatever happens, happens. And I'm not gonna be a casualty of that. I'm doing whatever the hell I can possibly do for the next several years. This is gonna be the main thing that I talk about. You know, I know a 100% that, like, you know, the vast, vast majority of the people who are I'm going to come across won't know that I have a book and won't know that, you know, that's a way in which they can learn from me. So, like, yeah, man. I'm I'm definitely stretching out the time horizon way far in terms of, like, how loud and annoying I am gonna be about this for a while.

Jay Clouse [00:13:22]:
What I don't think I realized until you sent me the early version to read through is I hadn't realized that this is, like, also a reference book. Most books, they're like, you read it, you get the big idea, hopefully it changes you and you move forward. And people will do that with this book. But also, there are so many very specific, not just frameworks, but literally scripts in templates in this book that a creator can have this on their desk, open it up, and be like, I know there's a script in here for talking about how to deal with a sponsor asking about doing affiliates. I'm gonna go to that page. I'm gonna learn from it. I'm gonna bring that into my own thing. Like, it's I can just see this on people's desk so much so that literally before we got on the call, I just bought a 100 copies.

Jay Clouse [00:14:09]:
I'm gonna give them away to people on the podcast.

Justin Moore [00:14:11]:
No, you didn't. I did. Are are you kidding me?

Jay Clouse [00:14:14]:
I'm not kidding you.

Justin Moore [00:14:16]:
What? Bro.

Jay Clouse [00:14:20]:
I'm gonna give them away to listeners. There's gonna be a link in the show notes for people to

Justin Moore [00:14:27]:
Dude, you did not just do that.

Jay Clouse [00:14:29]:
I did.

Justin Moore [00:14:31]:
Dude, I put that I put that on there as, like, the YOLO, like, comedy option.

Jay Clouse [00:14:36]:
And I YOLO ed.

Justin Moore [00:14:38]:
Dude, thank you so much. Are you kidding me right now? I'm in shock.

Jay Clouse [00:14:43]:
Not a favor. It's gonna be so helpful. And for people listening to the show, if they're listening early, they can be one of the first 100 people who get this book for free. Just go to the link in the show notes. And I think this is a book that should sit on your desk so you can reference it as you're going about your work.

Justin Moore [00:15:02]:
Thanks, dude. Man, that means so much to me, man. Sorry.

Jay Clouse [00:15:11]:
It's a really good book. And it's gonna it's gonna serve and help so many people. So, obviously, gonna do whatever I can to help you with it. But, also, like I said, not totally a favor. This is a book that people need next to them.

Justin Moore [00:15:27]:
Dude, this is a good thing it's not a video podcast today. Thank you, dude. That really means a lot to me, man. You you're such a great friend, and you've always been such a huge advocate for me, man. And that really, really means a lot to me.

Jay Clouse [00:15:40]:
Yeah. I think this is gonna be such a good addition to your speaking part of your business too. Not just because it's gonna get you more speaking gigs, but this is something that you know I talked to Tori Dunlap on the show and that was a fantastic episode her most recent episode and there were 2 book launch strategies she shared that like I just filed away in the back of my mind for when I write a book I'm definitely gonna do these things. One of them was bulk orders for speaking which I saw on your speaking page you make that option available but I really think that's gonna be big for you because you're such an incredible speaker and if you say I'll come speak Here's the fee if you bulk order some of these books for your attendees. I think it's a slam dunk for some of these conferences.

Justin Moore [00:16:27]:
I've actually been in negotiations with some sizable creator focused conferences about this very topic. Haven't got any to agree to it yet. But, like, that's definitely been you know, I've got this aspiration to get the book in 10,000 creators' hands in the next 4 months. So that's my short term goal. And then a 100,000 creators' hands in the next 5 years. And so those are big, big goals and, like, you know, to your point, like, those types of bulk order type things are really what I feel like I need to be focused on. And, again, like, it's not I don't necessarily care if I sell a 100000 books. Like, I just want to get this into people's hands because I do think it's gonna help so many people.

Justin Moore [00:17:09]:
Like, just to get a bit in the weeds of, like, your point around it being, like, a reference book that people have on their on their desk. Like, this was an intentional decision that I made to include certain things in the book for that very reason. So what led me to this is, like, before I started writing the book, I read Write Useful Books by Rob Fitzpatrick. I joined his author community, which was instrumental in helping understand, like, kinda structurally how how I want to organize the book. And I very much wanted to make it kind of a reference manual for that very reason. But the exercise that he encouraged prospective authors to do was go through this reader persona exercise where I I literally mapped out what are the interactions that people have where the book could get recommended? What questions could people be asking? Or what problems are people having where the person listening to this person complain or, like, saying I'm having an issue, where would the natural response be? You're having that issue? You should be a sponsor magnet. And deciding, like, how to title it, what that subtitle should be, what types of things should you talk about in the book, all around those moments of word-of-mouth. That was literally from the very beginning.

Justin Moore [00:18:19]:
That's how I designed it. And so to your point, adding these scripts of, like, hey. The brand says join our affiliate program. What do you say in response to that? I actually didn't have that in the initial draft of the book because I was like, oh, that's like people love that. Like, maybe they'll wanna join the course to get those scripts or this type of thing. And I was just like, no. Like, this is exactly why I should have this in here because the moment someone talks about that gripe with their friend, that's where the book would get recommended and

Jay Clouse [00:18:44]:
and Totally.

Justin Moore [00:18:45]:
There's so many, like, John has mentioned this and Tim Grahl has mentioned this that, like, it's very, very hard to sell a 100,000 books. It's possible to sell 10,000 through grit, but the chasm to get from 10,000 to a 100,000 has to come from word-of-mouth. And that comes from writing a, an amazing book. But also, you can be intentional about the word-of-mouth factor.

Jay Clouse [00:19:08]:
After a quick break, Justin and I talk about some of the hidden benefits of self publishing and how it feeds the greater parts of his business. So stick around. We'll be right back. And now back to my conversation with my friend, Justin Moore. I love that you've self published this because it opens up a lot of really interesting doors. I'd love to hear if how much you've thought about these and how much you think about exploring them. 1, you have these launch bonuses that you have a QR code in the front of the book that people can scan and get. You can update that page anytime and any author could do this if you have like a URL or a QR code.

Jay Clouse [00:19:47]:
So that's one thing like you could be adding value to this book over time. And because you're self publishing, you know exactly who purchases because they're purchasing through your website. So anytime you update this, you could actually push a notification to book purchasers. We just added a new script to the bonuses or something. But also, you could literally update the book if you wanted to for future purchasers. How much do you think you would pull that lever in the future?

Justin Moore [00:20:15]:
A ton. This is one of the primary reasons I decided to to self publish. I partnered with Tilt Publishing for this, actually. So they've been instrumental in kind of helping bring it to life after I finished the manuscript. So I absolutely wanna give them a shout out. And they designed a killer cover. Like, you know, I'm so so thrilled. Their team of designers, like, way surpassed what I could have done on my own.

Justin Moore [00:20:36]:
So I'm I'm super glad I did that. But thinking about, again, the economic engine behind my business is very much you know, I'm not looking to make money on the book sales. It'll be a nice kind of an incremental revenue stream, but I'm not looking to make money on that. It's really the coaching program is what I I hope to grow. I think that will become my main offer. Right now, it represents about 30% of my revenue, And I want it to be 80 or 90% in the next year or 2. And so that's going to require some very, intentional decisions, a de emphasis on the course, an emphasis on the coaching. And I'm I'm betting that the book will be a major catalyst for that.

Justin Moore [00:21:14]:
And so being able to do simple things like the moment someone buys the book, have an upsell page where it's like, hey, do you wanna join our coaching program? Like, the book is a great primer. But if you need ongoing support from us, like, we have this program here. So, like, a very intent like, that's not something that is as easy to do when you're traditionally published. And to your point about speaking, like, I absolutely agree with you, and I'm excited to do speaking. But I'm also I also don't wanna be a a career speaker. I don't want to be I'm gonna ask you about that. Yeah. I don't want to be I'm very I hate I do not like being away from my family.

Justin Moore [00:21:45]:
I've gotten up to a point in my life where I just don't like being away from them. I I I went to Boise to film with, Nathan Barry on his podcast, like, 2 weeks ago, and I was I was away for 1 night. And I was like, I don't like this. You know? I just like anytime I can bring my wife and my kids, like, or my family. It's tough, though, because they're in school. You know? It's not like we're digital nomads, and we could just, like, yeah, travel all over and do the speaking thing. And, again, no shade to anyone who's, like, built a business off of of speaking. I think that's awesome.

Justin Moore [00:22:11]:
It's just not the lifestyle I want or envision myself having. So maybe there's gonna be a couple key strategic events that I continue to go to, like VidSummit and Craft of Commerce and all that. But, really, selfishly, I'm kind of hoping that it could just be my event, and everyone comes to me. And then I could just do once a year, and then I don't have to do anything else. So I don't know, man. That's just where my head is at right now.

Jay Clouse [00:22:32]:
Okay. Let's talk about this. So Sponsored Games, you're doing it in March. I will be there. Let's do it. Include it in my recent email, and I feel so awful about this still. Dude,

Justin Moore [00:22:43]:
it does not no. It doesn't matter. It does it's okay.

Jay Clouse [00:22:46]:
It does matter. It does matter. But it's coming up in March. Talk to me about how you're thinking about that event as an entity inside the business. What is the time horizon you're thinking about that event on?

Justin Moore [00:22:57]:
I am fully prepared to probably lose money on the 1st year. I'm very much looking at it as a brand building exercise. You know, if I'm looking at all the ways in which I could potentially serve or educate people, I've got videos. I've got audio. I've got written stuff. And the final, I think, ultimate piece of this is, like, in person experience, in person education and teaching. Sponsorships are the number one revenue stream for so many creators and influencers and businesses, and there's no event focused around that. That has never made sense to me.

Justin Moore [00:23:32]:
And all all the years, decade plus of going to creator focused conferences, there's always, like, one panel or, like, 2 panels or something on the monetization track. But, like, it's does not make sense to me. And so I was like, this event has to exist. And I feel like I should be the person to have it because I don't have a dog in this race, like, and I'm the supreme advocate for creators. And so in terms of, like, the role that it plays in the business, I don't know, dude. I just think this event should exist and getting a bunch of people in one room who also believe that it should exist. I just feel like getting those people in a room, good things are gonna happen, and I don't know. I don't that's a thesis.

Justin Moore [00:24:07]:
Again, all this stuff is, like, thesis. And so other than, like, I feel like it should exist, I don't I don't know. Again, going back to the coaching program, it's going to be a great opportunity. Like, I don't want it to be a a gross event where you go there and it's like the entire thing is like a sales pitch leading up to the last thing where it's like, join the coaching program. You know, and because I I don't want that. I've been to events like that and it felt gross. But, like, I am going to find a way for it to feel good and a natural conversation that, like, hey, if you found value in the last couple days of, like, doing this role playing, you know, and or doing this pitch practice and doing these things, here's, like, an amazing offer to, like, work with us for the next year to, like, help you with your business. So I'm gonna find a way to do it.

Justin Moore [00:24:47]:
So figuring this out as I'm going, I guess.

Jay Clouse [00:24:50]:
At this moment, 3 months out, what is the likelihood that you'll do year 2 of this event?

Justin Moore [00:24:57]:
I mean, 99% in my mind. Okay. Why am I not saying a 100%? I don't wanna take a bath. I wanna lose, like, a 100. I'm not gonna lose that a bunch of money because I already have some sponsors locked in. We've already sold, you know, quite a few tickets. So I think pretty close to a 100% just because, again, I'm, like, trying to like you said, I'm trying to stretch the time horizon out. I've spoken with people who have started events.

Justin Moore [00:25:23]:
Year 1 is always that's the establishment year. That's the brand building year. Year 2 is when you have the hype video from the 1st year to, like, get people to see, oh, this is like a real thing. There's, like, people here that went that last year and all that. And so year 2 is when I've I've spoken. I've hired a lot of event consultants who have done this, who have said these things. So I am steeling myself for understanding that this is like a I could even see this being something that where there's, like, multiple events a year, regional events, you know, where there's, like, the West Coast chapter, the East Coast chap. You know? This event needs to exist, dude.

Justin Moore [00:25:54]:
Like I agree. So, yeah, I think it's gonna do well. I think it's gonna be useful.

Jay Clouse [00:25:58]:
I'm interested in the business model of events as a thing. My assumption is that this is, like, inside the Creator Wizard business. Yeah. But there's also a case to be made of, like, own entity entirely. Mhmm. Yeah. What have you heard from these people you're learning from? Yeah.

Justin Moore [00:26:15]:
I mean, you look at VidCon in the case of, like, Hank and John Green. That was an entity that was they were not running a business around creator education or anything like that. It was like a experiential entertainment kind of based networking event that, again, they created completely separate from their own personal brands on YouTube, Vlogbrothers, etcetera. And they ultimately sold that. Right? And so that became an asset that you ultimately sold. I don't think I'm looking at it in that way, at least right now. I do agree that it could become an entity that had its own legs that could be a salable asset for sure. But at least right now, I'm looking at the experiential stuff as just another touch point for us to educate people.

Jay Clouse [00:26:55]:
Yeah.

Justin Moore [00:26:55]:
I'm still looking at this as like a I want this to be my life's work. And I don't have an exit strategy. You know? I don't I don't have, like, oh, the 5, 10 year plan where I sell the conference and write off into the sunset. Like, I see myself doing this for the rest of my life.

Jay Clouse [00:27:11]:
This being everything, not just the event.

Justin Moore [00:27:13]:
Yeah. This being everything. Just like educating creators around this around sponsorships. And so I still look at it under the personal brand umbrella. And maybe that changes one day and maybe it doesn't.

Jay Clouse [00:27:21]:
Yeah. Super interesting, man. Thanks for being so open to to share all this stuff. I think education is gonna change a lot in the coming years. And I think you're positioning yourself well for it. Like, AI is getting so good and will be so good that if you know how to use it or if companies create better interfaces for more lay people to deal with it. I think education becomes hyper personalized to the individual and like information will be free. Learning will be free.

Jay Clouse [00:27:53]:
So where does the value from people like you and I come from? And I do think it's still the inherently scarce asset of Justin's time and attention, Justin's lived experience. I think it's the scarce asset of human interaction in communities online, offline events. So you're moving in a good direction. Like, I just think education businesses as a whole will be disrupted over the next 5 to 10 years anyway. So, like, why not disrupt yourself?

Justin Moore [00:28:26]:
How are you I mean, I know you're you're putting together your 1st in person event. How are you feeling? Is that where your mindset is also?

Jay Clouse [00:28:33]:
A little bit. I mean, I come at events more from the community side of things. We're gonna have 2 days for members of the lab in June before Craft and Commerce. That's like a very small swing of the bat at what you're doing. Right? Because it's just for members on the standard and VIP tiers. I'm projecting we'll have like 40 to 50 people, you know, so like the moving parts are smaller. The level of investment is smaller. And I look at that not as a moneymaker, but as like a core benefit to being a member of the community.

Jay Clouse [00:29:07]:
There will be, like, a attendance fee so we can basically split the cost for some of the fixed things. But I wanna make it as accessible as possible to as many members as possible. And I think that's gonna be the go forward plan. I think there is a world where I did a larger event for, like, the broader creator science audience. But I think if I did go down that path, that would be with the assumption of building, like, something of its own enterprise value. And I don't know that I'm committing to that just yet. I think where I have more conviction is just community as the core of my business model. And how I create community might expand.

Jay Clouse [00:29:46]:
Over the last couple months, I've really beefed up the basic tier of membership in the lab. And it's been really cool to see how people lean in and support each other. There's way less of me in there, but there are community spaces now. And it's been really cool to see how people are interacting in there and I wanna get them involved in in person experiences. I think the future is bright for community and human interaction. I think education will be disrupted in a way that we can't yet imagine. Could be AI, probably will be AI, but could also be like AR and VR. When do educational experiences shift from me looking at a computer screen to me wearing my meta Ray Bans or whatever and showing up in a classroom with you in Minnesota learning from somebody.

Jay Clouse [00:30:33]:
But we're like it's like we're sitting next to each other. You know? I think that's the future of like cohort based stuff, but I don't even know how to begin developing that type of experience right now. But I think it will happen. After one last break, Justin grills me on why I haven't written my book yet. We also get into the struggle between investing in new opportunities and doubling down on what works. So don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. And now please enjoy the rest of my conversation with Justin Moore.

Justin Moore [00:31:07]:
Is your kind of existential view, maybe not existential, but, like, is this is this one of the reasons why you've struggled with whether you want to write a book? Like, you're just because you feel like education is gonna be

Jay Clouse [00:31:17]:
Oh, no. And I think if if there is a form of information transfer that has proven it stands the test of time, I think it is books. You know, I think books will outlive blogs or newsletters, the essays that I'm writing. If I do want to share like a deeper message, it would be a book. The only thing gives me pause is it would be really easy to write a creator specific book that just is not relevant very

Justin Moore [00:31:44]:
soon.

Jay Clouse [00:31:44]:
I think you're in a great niche where that will not be true because I think that brands will continue to wanna work with creators. But if I wrote a book on like, here's how to grow your email list, that's out the window, you know, next year. And I just look at books as I mean, maybe you can speak to this and tell me if I'm wrong. I look at books as like the highest opportunity cost project I could take on right now. Like, it would be so consuming of time that I have to have really high conviction around it.

Justin Moore [00:32:15]:
I think that that's true. I also do think, though, again, all a thesis, that to your point, given the unpredictability of what's gonna happen in the next 5 to 10 years and given the baseline stability that your business has right now, it would not be wise to not do it. That's my opinion.

Jay Clouse [00:32:38]:
To not write a book?

Justin Moore [00:32:39]:
I think you should because you're in a privileged position, I think, to take a larger swing because you have some stability in your business. Obviously, you can't take your eye completely off the ball in terms of your community and your, you know, your core engine of your business. But, like, I don't know, dude. I you're such a deep thinker. I read a lot of the articles that you publish and and and newsletters and things like that, and you have unique thoughts. You have thoughts that are interesting. You have thoughts that are not just like the trite hacks and tips that you see on the Internet. They're deeper.

Justin Moore [00:33:16]:
And so there's something there for you, whether it's this around trust building or whether it's around, you know, relationship building. Or I I don't know what the book is about, but I just feel like there's a book in you, and I think you should take it seriously.

Jay Clouse [00:33:30]:
I agree with that. I agree with that being that there is a book in me. I appreciate the compliment. The question is, like, the unique thoughts, are they fairly evergreen, if not timeless? You know, so when I think about writing a book, the question is what is that book And how do I make that stand the test of time? Many, many years at least, but, like, hopefully, something that's perennial. And is it about creators at all? TBD.

Justin Moore [00:34:00]:
So I I think I know the book you should write.

Jay Clouse [00:34:03]:
Okay.

Justin Moore [00:34:04]:
Here's the playbook that I think you should run for the next 2 years. I think that you should take very seriously running, launching that signature product cohort because that is your superpower, in my opinion. Your superpower is helping people identify what they should be selling depending on the influence that they've grown and their expertise. You run that cohort a couple times. You get some amazing transformations and insights. Combine that with all the insights from all the hundreds of interviews you've done over the years. And the book is around figuring out what is the unique thing that you should be selling that is your wedge. I don't know if that's an interesting book to you, but, like, I feel like I would just devour a book from you on that subject.

Jay Clouse [00:34:47]:
I think about this a lot. I do think about this specifically a lot because it also what wasn't obvious to me until recently is before I was doing the creator stuff, I was building software products. I was literally head of product for a software company. And before that, I built a startup where I led the product there too. So, like, there's deep product within me. I have this coach. We don't work together super closely anymore, but we still catch up now as friends quite a bit. And he just built this, like, incredible assessment tool that identifies some of your blind spots and weak spots.

Jay Clouse [00:35:23]:
And his thesis is, like, a lot of times our deepest problems or insecurities are also some of our superpowers. And I did this quiz and he showed it to me. And it was like this fear of basically like a fear of not being good enough or being replaceable. And so one of my superpowers is identifying ways to, like, not be replaceable. And I can do that by helping other people, like, find products that are unique to them as well. I think there is something there and I think that is really interesting where I get hung up now. It's kind of this fewer moves bolder strokes idea with less time in the day, the highest leverage choices are where I put that time. And so I just wanna have like such high conviction around something.

Jay Clouse [00:36:12]:
And every time I think about like, okay, I should do the signature product cohort or course or whatever. I look at the numbers of my business and it's like the lab is such a huge part of the business's overall revenue. Shouldn't I just be compounding that value? That's where I get stuck.

Justin Moore [00:36:29]:
Yeah. But, again, I keep going back to, you know, something that I talk about in sponsor magnet is the explore exploit trade off. This psychological phenomenon, it's found in nature and so many aspects of our personal and professional life, where if you look at honeybees, okay, for example, right, you've got the hive. Right? You've got the queen bee. You've got the worker bees. You've got the scouts. So the scout's job is to basically go out there and forage, right, and bring, you know, material back to the hive. And so when they do this foraging, 80% of the scouts go off and they go to the same spot that they had identified, but 20% of them go off and explore.

Justin Moore [00:37:06]:
They explore other locations. And surprise, surprise, what do you think happens? They ultimately find new locations that are even richer in resources than the current location that the others are exploiting. Because what happens when you exploit a resource? It ultimately goes to 0. It gets depleted. Right? And so you always having your vision to, like, you know, exploring other aspects of things that could continue to, you know, ensure the survival of the business or or not just survive, but thrive is absolutely critical. So, yes, everything is going really well right now at the lab. And, of course, that's great. You don't need to, like, ignore it.

Justin Moore [00:37:43]:
But you absolutely have to be allocating a percentage of your time on efforts that will propel the business forward over the next 5 to 10 years. So writing the book in my mind is a super high leverage activity. Yes. You're right. Huge opportunity costs. But for someone in your position, someone with your audience, someone with high conviction on certain beliefs because you have a lot of spiky beliefs on, like, certain things. Man, again, that was the decision I made. I was like, the book you're telling me that I have to carve out 2 hours out of my day for the next year? That's a huge amount of time for same.

Justin Moore [00:38:14]:
I have a similar business to you, you know, community courses, etcetera. That's That's a huge amount of time for me. I could be making videos, short form content, you know, whatever. But it was a it was a bet that I was willing to make because of this belief that I have that, like, I really believe that this book should exist. And and, again, I I get it. Maybe you don't have the idea. I I know I wanna write a book about this thing. I get it.

Justin Moore [00:38:33]:
But, like, you should really get there, in my opinion, to figure out what it is. Because in my mind, like, a book would be a huge, huge propellant for you.

Jay Clouse [00:38:44]:
What about instead of doing that hard thing that I know I should do, what if I build an entirely new basement studio and hide from this doing that instead?

Justin Moore [00:38:54]:
I don't think that okay. I yes. That also I understand the temptation. I mean, let's be real. Like, you know, a new studio is good, pretty awesome, gives you legitimacy. You know, there's value there. I'm just gonna say, like, again, I know you're a new dad, but, like, I moved across the country. I've taught my last cohort all in the same time.

Justin Moore [00:39:15]:
I finished up my book. I'm preparing the conference. Like, I have kids. You know, we do a lot of activities. Like, I'm stressed the heck out. I'm sure you are too. I don't know. I just think that, like, burning the candle at both ends or or kinda burning the midnight oil for a short duration for a sprint Yield dividends online.

Jay Clouse [00:39:34]:
Yeah. I agree. I agree. A book will exist. Highest leverage part of writing a book, I think, is the idea. And so yeah, gotta solve for that. If it was a signature product book, I have ideas. I have beliefs.

Jay Clouse [00:39:50]:
I've worked with a lot of folks in the lab on this through the work that happens in there. It's not a streamlined process in there. But a lot of the questions that come up, like, inherently, these are questions about developing a signature product. So I have a lot of this around it, but I do think I would want to run probably a live cohort around it. And then when I think about that, I think but shouldn't I just do it as a sprint in a lab and make that membership more valuable? Do I really need to make money from the live cohort? And I think maybe do both. Maybe run it live. Have it be available to the audience as a whole. Give members of the lab free access to it.

Jay Clouse [00:40:26]:
I think that would be the next step for this project. Should I take it on? Which I think I want to I wanna do a live learning experience early in 2025. I've been oscillating back and forth between doing the signature product cohort or basically taking my best course build a beloved membership and making a live experience around that once or twice. But that's more of a revenue play and signature product would be more of a expansion play.

Justin Moore [00:40:56]:
If you're listening to this episode or right after you read this newsletter, can you hit reply and tell Jay what book you think he should write or DM him your thoughts on this? Because I think he needs to hear it.

Jay Clouse [00:41:09]:
I would love that. Alright. This is our our typical Jay and Justin therapy session, which I've really enjoyed. We have, like, 10 minutes left. What ground should we cover from here?

Justin Moore [00:41:19]:
Oh, man.

Jay Clouse [00:41:23]:
Is your pause that you don't have anything to cover and we should not talk about it or because you have something but you're afraid to say it?

Justin Moore [00:41:28]:
Yeah. It's the it's the latter. Okay. I'll say it. I'm in a really weird place right now because my dynamic with my wife, April, has shifted for the first time in, like, 12 years, 12 or 13 years. Those of you guys who know our story, like, you know, she started on YouTube in 2009. And so she grew her business. And that that was how I know all this stuff around sponsorships is because of her and her and the businesses she built.

Justin Moore [00:41:57]:
And so we ran that business for many years together doing it full time. And sponsorships was, like, our primary revenue stream. But, like, it was all on her. She was kind of the talent. Yeah. We work together, but, like, brands really wanted to work with her. And that was an immense amount of pressure being a new mom, being the breadwinner, kind of trying to juggle all that. And, of course, it's a privileged position.

Justin Moore [00:42:24]:
But at the same time, that was not the life that we thought we were gonna have. When we first got together, it was we we discussed a lot that we wanted more of a traditional relationship, gender role type thing and and, you know, not no judgment on anyone, but, like, that was what we wanted. And, you know, she was a preschool teacher when we met, and I was in medical devices, and that was just kinda what we thought our life was gonna be. So for her to grow this really surprising business was difficult on both of us because I struggled a long time with not being the provider for my family because I I took a lot of pride in that as a man. And we developed a wonderful dynamic over the years to, like, really make it work for us. But, like, it's just in the last, like, year or 2 where the rules have switched back again, where I'm able to say to her, like, you can slow down now. You don't have to, like, be at this breakneck speed pumping out content on the Internet like you have been for the last 15 years. You don't have to do that anymore.

Justin Moore [00:43:20]:
And that has been, on one hand, so satisfying and fulfilling. But on the other hand, super stressful because I'm, like, terrified of this business not working out and us reverting back to that last state. And so all of these, like, big swings that we've been talking about throughout this podcast are, like, made so much heavier by the fact that, like, am I jeopardizing this thing that I finally achieved in my own family? You know, like, if it doesn't work out, what's gonna happen? You know? So that I think about that a lot. That's what I think about when I'm laying in bed at night.

Jay Clouse [00:44:01]:
I feel you. But from the outside, I just can't imagine that being the case. I mean, even in a worst case scenario of, like, the event not going as well as you want, like that's a contained cost and experiment. The book at this point is pretty much done like it's happening. It's gonna be out there. It will continue to be an asset that you can leverage year on year on year. I mean, I think, again, from the outside, it seems like you have pretty high conviction on the Wizards Guild model. And I think it's a brilliant model of working with people on sponsorships.

Jay Clouse [00:44:36]:
So I just don't see how that goes away in any scenario.

Justin Moore [00:44:42]:
Yeah. Yes. I do have had conviction. You are right. I think it's gonna be great. I, actually, I wanna get your take on on a a new service that we're launching that will be very much aligned with the coaching, which again is giving me, like, some optimism around the more optimism around this stuff. So we actually just sold our first client on a new pitching service that

Jay Clouse [00:45:06]:
we're creating.

Justin Moore [00:45:08]:
You know, I I I can speak till I'm blue in the face about why it's so important to do outbound pitching even if you have inbound opportunities where brands are reaching out to you, this is the big trap that a lot of people fall into. They get comfy. Like, deal flow's great, and then it dries up and they're screwed. And, you know, what is 30, 40% of their revenue is, like, now not there because they didn't fill their pipeline up. They were just relying on inbound stuff. Right? And so I talk about this constantly, right, about the importance of pitching, but just people don't do it. They don't make time for it. They're busy.

Justin Moore [00:45:36]:
I get it. And I've been so nervous to create any sort of you know, because I have this line in the sand. I will never take a cut of your deals. That's fundamentally, I'm against that. And, you know, our our services are fee only. So it's a flat fee every month. You keep all the upside. And so I just kept hearing this over and over and over this issue that people had with, like, I just I don't know what it is, but I can't get myself to, like, pitch consistently.

Justin Moore [00:45:59]:
I just I don't know. It feels like this big lift. And so I just had this, like, spark of, this idea where I was like, what if we literally send you 5 pitches a week ready to hit send? You copy paste it. Here's the subject line. Here's the body. We've done the research. We know your business. We've done research on the brand of what we think the best pitching angle is.

Justin Moore [00:46:20]:
Here's their LinkedIn. Here's their email address. You have no excuse. Hit send. And, yes, we just signed our first person. We're gonna do a trial in January. So see stuff like this, the ROI is so obvious to me, and I have super high conviction that it's gonna be useful for people. I say this because the book I just don't there's not, like, a the same kind of, like, ROI that, like, I feel huge conviction around where it's like, I don't know, man.

Justin Moore [00:46:46]:
I'm just because

Jay Clouse [00:46:47]:
we're math machines. Like, humans are just math machines. It's always easier to calculate what is at stake to lose because you already have it. Like, we're math machines and we're also loss aversion creatures. So it's, like, really easy for us to quantify, like, here's the amount I've invested in this or here's what it would mean if this cannibalize this revenue that's coming in from over here. But we have no way to conceptualize possibility, let alone calculate it. So, like, our brains always skew towards the negative because the math equation is just one-sided. But, like, that's a clear ROI to you.

Jay Clouse [00:47:26]:
It's also a clear ROI to a customer, which is why I think it's so brilliant about your business as a whole. Like, it's just so clear to see how investing with you, with Creator Wizard can have an outsized return on that investment super easily. I think that's a great idea. There's so many like future versions of that that even become like lower friction and and more automated. I think it's a really cool idea.

Justin Moore [00:47:49]:
Yes. I have definitely pulled that string actually on that front as well to figure out how to make this be more scalable because it would be very manually time intensive for sure in the beginning.

Jay Clouse [00:48:01]:
What happened to the software you showed me, like, a month ago?

Justin Moore [00:48:04]:
So I'm gonna start running paid ads to that.

Jay Clouse [00:48:07]:
You you absolutely should.

Justin Moore [00:48:08]:
I think I'm going to. So what Jay is talking about is I created an audit tool that is amazing. Basically, you punch in your social media URL, you know, YouTube, Instagram, or TikTok for now. That's the first three platforms we've done it on. And it gives you a customized personalized report, like a audit, on how you can attract more sponsors. A lot of really low hanging fruit, the stuff I talk about in the book also is looks like, you know, something stupid like putting your email address in your Instagram bio in plain text. That makes it easy for brands and agency, let's say, to copy and paste that email to contact you. A lot of people don't think about stuff like this, right, where they don't have access to their the brand's Instagram.

Justin Moore [00:48:49]:
They can't DM you from the brand's handle. We're able to basically, like, assess, take a screenshot kind of of what your profile looks like and do some pretty deep analysis, not just not just bio related, but stuff related to your content too. So people have been pretty surprised at how effective the advice is. And so this is actually something I talked about with Nathan too is that he thinks that the audit tool should be our primary like, that should be the thing we're going out with, run ads to it. Like, if it's really that good, that's very, very useful. And then you can get pretty sophisticated on the back end, you know, depending on people's scores or depending on people's assessments, you give them different advice. Like, hey, you know, you seem like a great candidate for the coaching, or, hey, it seems like you should read the book or you should whatever. So, yeah, I think that that's gonna be pretty dope.

Justin Moore [00:49:32]:
If you wanna take it, by the way, sponsormagnet.com/audit.

Jay Clouse [00:49:35]:
I think it's a brilliant lead gen form, and I just hope that you put ConvertKit creator network recommendations on top of it.

Justin Moore [00:49:44]:
Oh. Yes. Yes. That is a great idea.

Jay Clouse [00:49:52]:
Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you coming on and being real and being vulnerable. I'm excited for the book launch. And Justin, we'll talk to you soon.

Justin Moore [00:50:00]:
Dude, thank you again, man, for being such a great friend, and I appreciate you more than you know.

Jay Clouse [00:50:12]:
If you want one of our free copies of sponsor magnet, then visit creatorscience.com/magnet. That's creatorscience.com/magnet. Or if you wanna buy it directly from Justin, just visit sponsormagnet.com. Links to both are in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and letting me know. I read them all, it goes a long way. Please consider doing it if you haven't already. Otherwise, thank you for listening and I'll talk to you next week.