#243: Brock Johnson – How to grow on Instagram in 2025

Brock Johnson [00:00:00]:
Shares. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the best form of engagement on Instagram is a share. Creating share worthy content is the key to growing on Instagram and increasing your views.

Jay Clouse [00:00:23]:
Hello, my friend. Welcome back to another episode of Creator Science. If you follow me on Instagram or if you read my newsletter, you know that I've been showing up on Instagram more and more lately. It's been fun to create over there without having high expectations or goals necessarily for the platform, but just to enjoy playing in a new format. But, also, being the person that I am, I can't help myself from trying to understand the platform a little bit better. So I reached out to Brock Johnson, an Instagram growth coach with nearly 800,000 followers on the platform. Brock has grown his Instagram by 1,000 followers per day for the last two years, and he's helped thousands of people improve their Instagram through one on one coaching and his membership, the Instaclub Hub. In this episode, I ask Brock a lot of my basic questions, like how often to post and whether scheduling has a negative impact, and some more nuanced questions, like how to move people off of Instagram.

Jay Clouse [00:01:19]:
I've recently been more and more interested in Instagram's sister platform, Threads, so we touch on that in this conversation too. If you don't already follow me on Instagram, you can follow me at j klaus and follow Brock at Brock eleven Johnson. That's the numeral eleven one one, Brock eleven Johnson. Tag us and let us know that you're listening. And now let's talk

Brock Johnson [00:01:41]:
with Brock. It's definitely different today than it was a few years ago, not just because the platform and the times have changed, but also because I'm at a different stage now in business as an entrepreneur and also in my goals and and just kind of the systems I have in place. So I really don't spend very much time on Instagram creating content every single day. I would say I spend a lot more time just as a passive consumer and enjoyer of the platform. I believe one time I did a a study to see, like, how little time do I actually spend a day. And it's like thirty seven ish minutes a day on Instagram That's actually being used productively to create content. With that being said, I am still maintaining about two posts per day to my feed. About one to two posts per day to my stories, but it really varies.

Brock Johnson [00:02:34]:
There are some days like today when we're recording this where I have 10 stories up, and then there will be two or three days in a row with no stories. And we can get into later why that is, but that is intentional in order to do certain things with my views, my engagement, and that sort of thing. But again, two feed posts per day, a couple stories per day. I spend the majority of time in my DMs and actually not to get too lost in the weeds. According to Instagram CEO, that is the most used area of all of Instagram. It's not watching reels. It's not watching stories. The number one place that people spend their time on Instagram is in the DMs.

Brock Johnson [00:03:11]:
And that's how I personally use Instagram. I open up the app. I go straight into my DMs and I start having conversations, answering questions, playing the role of customer service. That's really how I navigate my daily life on Instagram. And then I do have I definitely have to mention this. I have a community manager on Instagram. And so what her job is is basically to help me with the DMs and with my comments section. So she's replying to people.

Brock Johnson [00:03:36]:
She's answering questions. She's helping people out. I heard this really good analogy recently that was, if you walked into a coffee shop and you complimented the barista on their shirt and they didn't respond to you, you would probably not only never talk to that barista again, you might change your coffee shop altogether. When people reach out, when people leave a a comment, even if it's like the heart eyes emoji or clapping hands emoji, I try to always respond. It's really important for me that people feel seen and they feel heard and that they feel valued and appreciated when they whenever they engage with my account. So that's kind of what my daily life looks like on Instagram. I do have a lot of boundaries in place though. So I, you know, I don't go on Instagram and work after four or 5PM.

Brock Johnson [00:04:17]:
I don't usually work before 10AM. I'm usually reserving that time for my family, for my personal hobbies, my well-being and whatnot. So that's kind of my daily life on Instagram.

Jay Clouse [00:04:28]:
I love this point about if people make the effort to invest time and engage with you and you don't see them, that has a negative effect that might just stop that behavior, which, of course, as content creators, we don't want. But at your scale, over 750,000 followers on just Instagram, that's a nontrivial amount of time to deal with that. So I can see where this community manager can help out. You say that you spend about forty minutes proactively, productively making things on Instagram. That seems really efficient to be making two posts and multiple stories. So what pre work exists before you go into the Instagram app to make these things?

Brock Johnson [00:05:09]:
Yeah. Absolutely. This is part of how I spend such little time on Instagram is I actually do very little creation on Instagram, partially because the Instagram tools are just lagging behind outside tools. Like, I would much rather edit in CapCut, for example, than edit in the Instagram editor, which is clunky and slow. And that's speaking of, like, feed posts and reels and edits for those things. Stories are very quick. They're very in the moment. Stories will take me a few seconds, and I do always create my stories in the Instagram app rather than using like Canva or some other editing platform.

Brock Johnson [00:05:43]:
But in terms of the pre work, I have an elder who edits my short form content for me. She edits currently about 16 reels per month. And so usually what that equates to, is twice a month, I set aside an hour or two, and I film as much as I possibly can. I make sure that it's right after I've like cleaned up my beard and it's not looking crazy. I've recently gotten a fresh buzz cut, so my hair is two millimeters instead of three millimeters long. And as funny as that might sound, it is important for everyone listening to recognize that there are times where we feel better, we look better, we're more confident, we're not feeling like we're sick, or we have a sore throat, or whatever. And those times need to be capitalized on. And so those times are not the time to sit down and be like, okay, now it's time to script my content.

Brock Johnson [00:06:29]:
What am I gonna create a post about today? What's my new idea? Once you get to that point that you are ready to go, you got your nice t shirt on, your hair is looking good, you brush your teeth. It's time to just film. It's time to not waste time editing or scripting or doing anything else. You need to maximize that window. And so that's really what I do. And I spend about an hour or two, twice a month filming those eight videos, eight times two. So 16 a month. And I just send them off to my editor.

Brock Johnson [00:06:57]:
She does the rest for me. I added her to the team almost two years ago now, which is kind of crazy. It's already been two years. But I added her to the team, and it's been such a night and day difference for me because I enjoy editing. My background, like, when I was growing up, I loved editing videos. I I minored in film studies in college. So I love editing. But number one, I'm not amazing at it.

Brock Johnson [00:07:19]:
Like, I'm I'm decent. I've learned a few tricks along the way, but I'm not amazing at it. And number two, it just takes me too long compared to if I was using that time doing other things. I could be more productive and add more value to myself, my business, and my life doing other things besides editing. So I've hired an editor to do that work for me. And then I also wanna touch on the actual scripting and the idea process. That's something that I feel like when you force yourself to be creative, it it's kind of like forcing a fart. Like, when you force it, it's gonna come out shit.

Brock Johnson [00:07:49]:
You know? And so what I would say is don't force yourself to be creative. And I never try to force myself to be creative. I never And when I do, it's horrible. Like when I sit down and I'm like, hey, my elder just texted me. She needs five more videos because she's out. I'm like, oh, god. This is gonna be bad because I'm forcing myself to be creative. Instead, I allow myself to just over the course of the month, whenever I have an idea, I just write it down in my notes.

Brock Johnson [00:08:15]:
Maybe I'm scrolling through TikTok and I see a hilarious video. I'm gonna save that. I'm gonna save it in my notes. I'm gonna come back to it later. Maybe I'm laying in bed and I'm reading a chapter of Harry Potter before I fall asleep. Boom. An idea pops in my head. Write it down really fast, and then go back to my book.

Brock Johnson [00:08:29]:
So I have this big list of ideas. And then when it's ready to film, when it's time for me to actually create these things, I can just look at the list of ideas and be like, oh, okay. These three are good. This one, I don't even remember what I wanted to do. This one's not good anymore. This one, the time has passed, and I can select from there without having to script right and ideate at that actual point.

Jay Clouse [00:08:49]:
So if I'm hearing you correctly, ideation happens when inspiration happens. You capture it. Then you spend some time doing scripting in a batch some other time. What does that look like for you?

Brock Johnson [00:09:01]:
Yeah. So my scripting is pretty minimal at this point. I focus the majority of my time, energy, and effort, and this is what I recommend for people as well, on the hook. So 80% of my time, energy, and effort is spent on the first twenty percent of the video. The first sentence or two, because I know that in short form content, the hook is absolutely everything. The hooks matter in YouTube videos and podcasts and in books, but it especially matters where people are scrolling, scrolling, scrolling so fast that even just the wrong sound effect or the wrong first word can be enough to get someone to scroll. I don't know if you've ever done this, Jay, but if you've ever tried to watch like TikTok or reels with someone else, it's infuriating. Like, sometimes I'll sit with my wife and we'll like try to watch the same for you page.

Brock Johnson [00:09:48]:
And there's a video that half a second into the video, she has already decided based off what she wants to watch. Nope, I'm not into it. I'm scrolling. And that's something that like I would have stopped and watched. And it's because we're different people. We have slightly different interests, but that just goes to show how quickly people decide whether or not they wanna watch it. So when it comes to my script writing, I focus most of my time and energy on crafting a a well written hook that's going to grab people's attention. And then the rest of the video, I don't script word for word.

Brock Johnson [00:10:15]:
I usually just write like a few bullet points, things I want to address. Maybe if there's a story I wanna make sure that I tell in this so that I remember the general direction I want to head in. But for me personally, and I know a lot of people will relate to this. When I have the full thing scripted out, I feel like I have to follow that script to a t. And if I mess up a word in the sentence, I have to start the whole scene over. I don't allow myself to be extemporaneous and kind of free flow. And so that's what works for me.

Jay Clouse [00:10:43]:
When you think about the hook, how much are you focusing on the literal words, and how much are you focusing on the visual hook, the thing that is seen immediately?

Brock Johnson [00:10:53]:
I focus a lot more so on the words that are being said. However, I think that the visual component is something that is becoming more of a focus of mine over the last few months and being more dynamic with what is going on visually. I think that there's kind of a double edged sword to having, like I'm sitting in right now, a professional studio set up with a fancy mic and a desk and whatnot. Because it's very easy for me to just hit record and record eight videos right here wearing this t shirt. It looks the same. There's nothing visually different besides maybe, you know, the text that's on the screen. And so being more creative with what's actually happening in the visual component is something that I'm adding into my focus now. But really, I think that even outside of that, if the words aren't what people want to hear, if the words aren't truly engaging, the visual doesn't matter.

Brock Johnson [00:11:42]:
I mean, I could be in a dimly lit closet with a grainy video. If I'm saying something that directly appeals to you, you're gonna keep watching the video. And then I will say this is another part where having an editor really helps because she can do some dynamic fancy transitions and sound effects and fly ins and edits at the very beginning, which add to the visual hooking component.

Jay Clouse [00:12:03]:
Yeah. I think a lot of people who listen to the show are like me in that we're able to see people who are doing something really well and deconstruct it. And now we see, like, okay. Here's what, like, an a plus version of this looks like. And if we haven't even mastered, like, a c level version of it yet, we get overwhelmed because we think we have to go straight to that a plus. So Mhmm. In this process you've just described, what do you think is the eighty twenty of where people should be focusing their time if they're not publishing, let's say, many reels yet?

Brock Johnson [00:12:33]:
Just, like, rip off that band aid and start posting. There's so many things that are coming to my mind right now that I wanna tell this person. First of all, I love that you use this, like, grading scale system. When I went off to college, my mom gave me this great piece of advice because growing up, I was a hardcore perfectionist, people pleaser, straight a student, above a four point o GPA, going to an elite college. When I went off to college, my mom said, hey, Brock, remember, Cs get degrees. And as simple as that is, that really has stuck with me because that was true in college. And really what that meant for me in college was I was a student athlete. I was going to get way more out of my college experience, both from an enjoyment factor and from like a long term longevity life perspective by not stressing out so much over getting straight a's in college.

Brock Johnson [00:13:22]:
And instead, networking and going to events and hanging out with people and making friends and just growing as a human being more than just memorizing some things out of textbook. How does that apply to social media and to Instagram and to reels? I think that the same is true for social media. We are always going to be our own toughest critics and harshest judges. And so if you create something that you think is a C, your followers are probably going to think it's a B or maybe even an A. And so just post it, Just post it. They're not noticing all those little minor imperfections. Like as we're having this conversation right now, if someone's watching the video version of this, they might think that my office looks great. They have no idea that I moved in a few days ago and these walls are not supposed to be white.

Brock Johnson [00:14:05]:
They're supposed to be painted green, but it looks okay on video. You have no idea that there's a pile of boxes behind me right now. You have no idea all of these issues and minor imperfections because everyone on social media is either a consumer who's scrolling and seeing 50,000 other posts that day and they don't care to notice the one minor flaw on yours, or they're also a producer like you and I, Jay, and as a producer, you're so worried about your own stuff, your own content, your own things. You're not noticing those little imperfections. And so my biggest tip for everyone, but it's just press post, Like, just press post. Ultimately, that's how you learn. That's how you grow. You make great content by making 300 shitty pieces of content and learning a little bit along the way.

Brock Johnson [00:14:46]:
And then by that 300 post, suddenly you have a viral smashing hit that you're super excited about. Everyone's like, wow. It's overnight. How'd you do it? But you had two years of experience beforehand.

Jay Clouse [00:14:56]:
I wanna finish up the workflow here, and then I'm gonna dig more into, like, if we're getting started and we're pressing post, how do we get a little bit better? But just to finish off this first thought, when you ship off your 16 videos to your editor, what else are you giving them in terms of direction to get the outcome that you want?

Brock Johnson [00:15:15]:
I'm giving my editor, and this is part of the reason that I'm so thankful to have the editor that I do, little to no explanation. If there's like a specific b roll or a specific edit that I want, like I did a video recently where I have this analogy called the mini skirt rule. And so I had her like edit myself into a mini skirt. So I had to give her that feedback. But for the most part, there's no edits in terms of her editing. I don't have to like say, Oh, change this, redo this. It's pretty straightforward when it comes to my talking head videos. And I think that for most people talking head videos are going to be pretty straightforward because just adding out the bad takes, the misspoken words and whatnot, adding out the pauses, adding in some closed captions, and then adding in some sound effects or dynamic transitions or whatnot, maybe a couple of b roll clips here or there.

Brock Johnson [00:16:01]:
Those edits are much simpler than maybe like a more dynamic storytelling YouTube video or something like that. I do post things besides just what she edits. So those more complex edits, I still do some of those myself. If I have like a very specific idea that I'm working on, sometimes it is faster for me to just crank it out myself rather than explaining it to someone else. But it's kind of a a ham and egg process depending on what the exact kind of video is going to be.

Jay Clouse [00:16:28]:
There's a fun part of being a creator where you collaborate with people like this.

Brock Johnson [00:16:31]:
Mhmm.

Jay Clouse [00:16:32]:
And part of your job kinda becomes like talent scout. You know, define somebody that has the editing chops, but not just the editing chops, the decision making and creativity that you can send this off to them and they can edit it. I mean, typically, those people are gonna come at a little bit of a premium.

Brock Johnson [00:16:49]:
Mhmm.

Jay Clouse [00:16:49]:
You've worked with thousands of people on their Instagram at this point. If someone says, I wanna find an editor to help me with my short form videos, how do you help them understand budgeting for an editor or finding an editor?

Brock Johnson [00:17:01]:
Yeah. First of all, in terms of budget, it's going to, of course, vary depending on the person and their needs. Some people are and also, I should say, the person, their needs, and also the kind of content they're going to be creating. If there's someone who is creating a lot of vlog style content, content that is, you know, more in-depth has more editing, more storytelling, more complexity to it. They might need a higher end editor or they might need someone who's like a very skilled creative while someone who is just doing talking head videos, for example, like everything I shared a moment ago, they might need someone who's more of a rule follower, someone who's just going to, you know, remove the things that needed to be taken out, add the things that need to be added, and that's pretty much it. Good to go. In terms of the best place to find them, you can go the traditional route of going to Fiverr or Freelancer or using like these other sort of sites to find an editor. But I also find that it's very, very useful to just go to the platform that you want an editor for.

Brock Johnson [00:17:55]:
So we're talking about Instagram right now. Go to Instagram and go to the search bar and type video editor or reels editor. And you'll probably find a dozen, if not 50, if not a couple hundred people who are advertising this as a service. What you can also do is reverse the process. Find some creators who you like their editing, and just reach out to them. Like, I almost on a probably monthly basis, recommend my editor on my stories because people are always asking me who edits your videos. I want mine to look like those. Here's her name.

Brock Johnson [00:18:27]:
You can check her out. If you want, you can hit her up. But if you find someone who you really like their style, just reach out to them. Maybe they do it themselves, in which case you're probably out of luck. They probably aren't going to edit yours for you. But most of the time, if it's a, you know, well edited dynamic video, they have someone who's doing it for them. Sometimes it's an entire agency and that person is probably looking for more work themselves and then you can reach out on the DMs and actually hire that editor if you want that.

Jay Clouse [00:18:53]:
After a quick break, Brock shares what's working working for creators today on Instagram. Things like how often should you post and does scheduling a post hurt its reach? So stick around. We'll be right back. And now back to my conversation with Brock Johnson. So you shared kind of the current state of your rules of engagement, how you approach the platform. And implicitly, it kind of sounded like there was a time where you were spending even more time publishing even more. So help me understand and bridge the gap between somebody who's newer to the platform today. Are there any significant thresholds to be aware of of, like, you wanna post this often to unlock better consideration for the algorithm or something? What types of rules would you give to somebody who's getting started?

Brock Johnson [00:19:42]:
So it was definitely different back in the day. What's interesting, though, is that I was not posting more, but I was working more and spending more time. This was at a time where I was basically every day flying by the seat of my pants, creating and posting, creating and posting. And I was on this never ending hamster wheel where I had to create a video that day or else there was not going to be a video posted that day. Just yesterday, I pulled my audience and I found that about 65% of them do not schedule their posts, which to me was was mind blowing. I was like, why? And of that 65%, an additional like 35% said that they do schedule their posts, but only sometimes. Which means that like 10% of people are regularly or often scheduling their posts. That's how I used to be.

Brock Johnson [00:20:28]:
I used to be never schedule. I actually believed for a while that if you scheduled, it would hurt your engagement or your views. That has since been disproven actually numerous times numerous studies and I've personally tested myself on my own account. There's no difference in terms of views and engagement whether you schedule or you don't. But that's so freeing because at the end of the day, I see myself as a business owner first. I see myself as an entrepreneur first, not a content creator first. And so for me, I would much rather have a post scheduled a week in advance, and I know it's going live, then have to wake up in the morning and spend forty five minutes stressing out over what's my post going to be that day, what's my latest trend. The peace of mind trade off is much more important to me than, oh, am I on the most recent trend? And also, I should say this, scheduling posts a week or a couple weeks in advance allows me to stay consistent, but still have the freedom and flexibility to follow trends.

Brock Johnson [00:21:24]:
Let me give you a prime example from today. I had a post that went live at, like, six this morning when I was still asleep. I woke up, I went to the gym with my wife, we're walking around the track, warming up, and we're like, hey, Spotify Wrapped came out today. And I was like, oh, yeah. I made a post last year when Spotify Wrapped came out. That was like my Instagram Wrapped. I should do another one of those today because the new Spotify Wrapped came out. So when I got home from the gym, I had already posted, so there's no stress or pressure, but I had the freedom to whip up my 2024 version of my Instagram wrapped and post that.

Brock Johnson [00:21:56]:
So that way, I'm able to stay consistent, but still, you know, schedule things in advance and and also stay on trends. To answer the question of how much should you post, the more you post, the more you grow. There is a direct correlation between post rate and growth rate as long as we're talking about the Instagram feed. Instagram stories do not help you grow at all. They don't do a thing. But Instagram feed posts, so the reels, the slideshow posts, which are called carousels, and then photo posts, the more you post, the more you grow. Now, that's the facts. And I always like to start with the facts because it sounds good and that's what people want.

Brock Johnson [00:22:30]:
They want the numbers. The more you post, the more you grow. So, two, three, four, five times a day if you can. Keyword, if you can. What I like to follow-up, the more you post, the more you grow statement with is, but instead of focusing on that, I want you to focus on what can you sustain. Whatever you can sustain, because we're all at different levels of production value and we're all in different stages of business and different stages of life. And some of us are going through things right now. And we also all have different goals.

Brock Johnson [00:22:57]:
Some of us want really rapid growth because we know we're launching something in q one twenty twenty five. And so we're like, we need to go now. And some of us were like, hey, I'm just kinda getting started. I'm just finding my footing. So I'm gonna start slower. And so figure out what you can sustain, whether that's one a week, one a day, three a day, whatever. And then last but not least, challenge yourself to do a little bit more because growth happens in life and on Instagram. When we push ourselves outside of our comfort zone, when it's not like, hey, I'm comfortable with one a day, so I'm gonna do one a day.

Brock Johnson [00:23:24]:
No. You're comfortable with one a day, so do one a day. But then challenge yourself on some days to do two or to schedule that one a day, a week or two in advance. So then you can create even more. And ultimately, that growth will come from the consistency and the frequency of posting.

Jay Clouse [00:23:40]:
If I'm posting consistently and feeling like I'm kind of at a plateau for the reach it's getting, how things are going, is there a metric or some sort of measure I can look at to try to get a clue for what tends to perform more? Like, what should I try to influence to make my content perform better when I'm looking at my analytics?

Brock Johnson [00:24:03]:
Shares. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the best form of engagement on Instagram is a share. This has been something that I've been saying for the last few years, and it was finally confirmed earlier this year by Instagram CEO himself. They call it sends per reach, which is a fancy way of saying, of all the people who saw this, how many of them shared it? And shares, it makes sense. Right? When we think about the algorithm, it can be very confusing, very overwhelming, especially on all these different platforms and, like, what influences a post. If I see one of your posts, Jay, and I send it to my wife, the number of views has just doubled. It went from one to two. Now imagine if I saw that post of yours and I shared it to my story.

Brock Johnson [00:24:44]:
Now it's getting hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of views. Everyone who's viewing my story is now seeing it. If I send it to my group chat with all my friends, now all of a sudden, like, eight more people are seeing it. And so shares are the ultimate metric both in the algorithms eyes and then just also in the human nature component. Right? Like a shared is literally someone sending a post to someone else. And so shares are what I would optimize for if you're looking for growth. Creating share worthy content is the key to growing on Instagram in 2025, and that's because quite simply shares are the best form of engagement for reaching new people and increasing your views.

Jay Clouse [00:25:19]:
I imagine there's, like, the lazy version of this where I can just, like, leave at the bottom of my description or my my caption be like, share this if you agree. But I imagine there's probably a better way to design this and optimize for shares. How can I better make my content more share worthy?

Brock Johnson [00:25:36]:
Well, I know you call that the lazy way, but I actually think a lot of people don't even take the time to use calls to action like you just said. Like, they'll create a post that they want to get a lot of shares, and it's a post that's designed to be share worthy. And then they won't say anything. You need to ask people to do what you want them to do. And it's amazing the difference. Even when I create a post and I'm like, this is a banger post. If my caption is just like, who can relate versus share this, if you can relate the difference in engagement is huge. Right? And it's just a few words there, but it starts with creating share worthy content.

Brock Johnson [00:26:12]:
And in my opinion, there's kind of five different kinds of share worthy content. And these are things that pretty much any niche, anyone listening, any kind of business owner or creator can incorporate into their content in some way. So the first one, motivational content. These are like motivational quotes, inspirational messages, reminders, stories of like triumph before and afters, those things very share worthy. Number two is what I call a call to arms. The easiest way to think about this is an example of the ALS ice bucket challenge. Everyone remembers that 2014. You dump a bucket of water on your head and then you do what? You tag three people to do the challenge next.

Brock Johnson [00:26:53]:
A tag is also a share. It's basically sending this to someone else. And so call to arm style posts are like, we need your help. We're trying to raise awareness, spread the word. One of my most share worthy posts that I've ever made on Instagram, It looks like a receipt, like a crumpled up receipt. And then on the receipt, instead of like the products that were bought, at the top it says, ways to support a small business, or how to support each other on Instagram. And then the line items are like, you know, liking posts, commenting on reels, and all of the prices are $0, 0 dollars, 0 dollars. And then at the bottom, it says total $0.

Brock Johnson [00:27:29]:
Highly share worthy. I've posted that, and this is kind of a bonus strategy right now. I've posted that three times in the last year, and all three times are now in my top 10 most viewed posts ever. And so the kind of bonus strategy there is if you have a post that does well, post it again. Even if, like, a ton of people see it and it does really well, post it again. If a ton of people don't see it, even more reason to post it again because no one saw it the first time. So that kind of like call to arms, we're all in this together. Let's help each other out.

Brock Johnson [00:27:58]:
Let's spread the word. Those posts are often very share worthy. The third is relatable content. That's, the one that most people think of, like, relatable memes. Right? Self deprecating humor, challenges that we all experience, frustrations, joys that we all deal with on a daily basis. Super, super share worthy. Number four is controversial content. Now when it comes to controversial content, I would never recommend someone to try to get canceled or to stray out of their lane to go talk about something divisive or political or to go after someone.

Brock Johnson [00:28:31]:
Absolutely not. What I mean when I say controversial content is kind of like the unpopular opinion content that's very popular nowadays, where you say, you know, unpopular opinion and you share a stance related to your niche or your industry that maybe it is unpopular. Maybe it's against the grain, or maybe it's something that most people don't teach. Like, one of my examples of this that I did myself was a few years ago. Everyone was obsessed with hashtags, and this was, like, 2021. And I made this post saying, like, forget about hashtags. They're not going to make or break your content. They're not necessary.

Brock Johnson [00:29:06]:
And this was, like, mind blowing for people. They're like, what? How am I ever supposed to grow without hashtags? And so that was controversial at the time, but it got a lot of shares because people are like, yeah, I agree. I've been thinking this. I've been too scared to say it myself, but finally someone said it. And so I agree. And so I'm gonna share it. That's number four. And then number five is using news or pop culture.

Brock Johnson [00:29:28]:
I think it's very helpful to set Google alerts for different words relating to your industry. I'm fortunate that whenever Instagram comes out with a new feature, that's a news alert for me. But there's also ways that you can incorporate pop culture using what's going on in the celebrity world and in TV shows and movies. Like, you know, there was the whole craze about wicked people creating content related in a wicked is more likely to get shared in 2024 than people creating content about Barbie, which was popular in the summer of twenty twenty three. Right? So there's those pop culture moments and and breaking news that if you can turn that into a way to relate it to your content, very share worthy.

Jay Clouse [00:30:06]:
Let's say you're at the gym and you have an idea, and you're like, oh, I should make some content about it. If you don't see how it connects to one of these five share worthy ideas, do you still make it?

Brock Johnson [00:30:18]:
I will as long as it relates to my niche. That's my biggest thing is every single one of your posts has to relate to your niche. Not every single post has to be share worthy. And in fact, if every single post is share worthy, you're gonna feel disappointed a lot of the time. Because imagine this, Jay, imagine I made a post this morning, 6AM, that was super share worthy. You saw it. You were like, oh my gosh, this is so good. I totally relate.

Brock Johnson [00:30:39]:
I'm sharing this to my story. And then at 11AM, I made another post that was also very share worthy. And again, you were like, oh my gosh, this is super funny. You're probably not gonna share that to your story as well. Like there's no way your entire Instagram story is just going to be my posts being shared. There's no way you're gonna send seven Brock Johnson posts in a row to your best friend. I'm like, it's just, you might, you might, but it's unlikely, unless the posts are just that good. And so not every post is going to be share worthy and that's fine.

Brock Johnson [00:31:07]:
There's definitely a place for just purely educational content or informational content or storytelling content that might not be as share worthy. So, yeah, absolutely still create it just as long as it relates to your niche. If it doesn't post it on your Instagram stories or don't post it at all because it can be a very dangerous game to play if you're posting things that don't relate to your niche.

Jay Clouse [00:31:29]:
Let's talk about that piece of advice. This, like, targeting your niche. Because as I've seen, all social platforms evolve and really focus on this, like, for you feed dynamic where they're saying, we know best. We're gonna put content in front of you that we think is interesting to you. It feels like niche interests are difficult to crack into that feed. It seems like that feed seems to be more full of, like, broadly applicable ideas that are not so niche. So talk to me about what you're seeing. I honestly don't know the platform that well.

Jay Clouse [00:32:02]:
That's why we're talking. So when you say target your niche, how do I do that in a way that feels like it can truly reach outside of the people who are already following me?

Brock Johnson [00:32:13]:
So when I say niche, I define it as the who and the what. Who are you trying to attract? Like the demographics, that person, that ideal audience or customer member, and then the what, the specific topic that you're going to be talking about. So when I say niche, we are are getting very specific with the content we are posting. For example, my niche, I can talk about that very easily. I teach business owners and creators how to grow on Instagram. So does that have anything to do with Spotify? No. But can I massage Spotify wrap to make it Instagram wrapped and then thus make it relevant to my niche, to my industry, to my audience? Yes. And so that's kind of the game that you have to play within niche content.

Brock Johnson [00:32:56]:
And then there is this thing that I like to call naps, which is niche adjacent posts. And occasionally you have to take a few naps. Occasionally you gotta take a nap. You gotta make a post that is niche adjacent, right? Like it's relating to growing on Instagram, but maybe it's more about marketing or maybe it's more about business or maybe it's more about personal development. It's not specifically about a strategy for growing on Instagram, but it would still appeal to the who, or it would still be related to the what. It just might not be perfectly ideal. But again, not every single post is going to help you grow your following. Some of your posts are going to nurture your existing followers.

Brock Johnson [00:33:33]:
Some of your posts, are going to deepen your relationship and your sense of trust that your followers have in you. So there's really different kinds of posts depending on what your goals are.

Jay Clouse [00:33:45]:
After one more quick break, Brock and I cruise through a lightning round of topics like testing ideas on threads, promoting And now please enjoy the rest of my conversation with Brock Johnson. My understanding about how following activity often happens is, yes, it'd be great if our content pops into somebody's feed, it's the first time they're seeing and they click follow from the content itself. But a lot of times people go to the person's profile before making that decision. Right? Mhmm. What do people get wrong about the way their profile is designed that doesn't make that audition successful?

Brock Johnson [00:34:32]:
This is another reason why niche matters. If I make a great post about strategies to grow on Instagram and you see it, and you click on my profile, and this is what most people do. They click on the profile, and they're looking for more of the same. If they click on my profile, and they see a video of me snowboarding, and they see a video of me with my wife, and they see a photo of me on vacation, they're like, oh, okay. So this guy had one good post, but there's not more of the same. I shouldn't expect more. So I'm not going to follow him for that. That's why the majority of your posts should be related to your niche.

Brock Johnson [00:35:01]:
In terms of the bio itself, we can kinda get lost in the the nitty gritty of the Instagram bio, but let's kind of run through it as quickly as I can. The username, if it's a personal brand, should be your first and last name. It should have your name because you are a personal brand. It should have your name as a person. If it's a business brand, you, of course, can have, like, your company name. If you need to, like, cram, a keyword in there, like, if your name is John Smith, you can do JohnSmith.fitness. If you really wanna keep your name and have, like, a keyword in your username. Profile picture.

Brock Johnson [00:35:34]:
Close-up, well lit selfie on a clear background. Don't try to cram any, like, props into your profile picture. And then another common mistake I see is people, they use their logo as their profile picture, and their logo was designed to be on top of a store or on the banner of a website. And it was not designed to be this little tiny profile picture that's smaller than a penny. So make sure that your logo is appropriate for the profile picture. One of the biggest mistakes that people make in their bio is the bold line right below your profile picture. It's called your Instagram name when you're setting up your profile. And so what most people do is they put their first and last name.

Brock Johnson [00:36:12]:
Well, that line is just as searchable as your username. That line and your username are interchangeable in terms of your searchability. And so you need to cram as many keywords onto that line as possible. So if anyone looks at my Instagram, my username is Brock eleven Johnson. It's my first and last name. Profile picture big bright cartoonish photo of me. My Instagram name says Instagram growth coach that is searchable. That's a way that someone can find me and it specifically and concisely articulates what I do for a living.

Brock Johnson [00:36:46]:
So within three words, you have an understanding. Okay. I know what this guy does. Then the rest of my bio is not a dating profile, which is a mistake I see a lot of people making. They're listing fun facts. I've got three fur babies. I'm a wine lover. I'm a ski enthusiast.

Brock Johnson [00:37:00]:
I don't care. I don't care that you're a Virgo. I need to know what you can do for me. When we're looking at your profile, we decide very quickly whether or not you're worth following. And so your bio needs to clearly and concisely articulate, why should I care? Why should I follow you? Like, what's in it for me as the follower? That needs to be written in your bio. And as long as you check off all of those boxes, everything else is gonna make a very small difference. But those are really the key things.

Jay Clouse [00:37:28]:
In that bolded line, the profile name Mhmm. Why not Brock Johnson hyphen Instagram growth coach? Is it just a character limit thing?

Brock Johnson [00:37:36]:
Yeah. Actually, it used to be a character limit thing. It used to be 36 or 32, but now it's 56 in most countries. And so I could add Brock Johnson. I was verified by Instagram before meta verified. So now you can pay the $15 a month and get verified, which if you do that, you can't change those things without, like, stopping your subscription and then, like, de verifying yourself. And then you gotta do go through this whole process. As someone who is traditionally verified, I literally can't change it.

Brock Johnson [00:38:05]:
Like, if I try to change it, it says, like, it's submitting for approval and it's, like, a sixty day process. So I just can't change it. But adding Brock Johnson hyphen Instagram growth coach, totally cool with that. A lot of people do that, and I think that that's, you know, a helpful way to put your name on that line as well.

Jay Clouse [00:38:20]:
Help me understand how you approach highlights, and then I wanna do, like, pinned posts as well.

Brock Johnson [00:38:26]:
Yeah. My highlights were neglected, like, something at the bottom of my to do list for a long time, but highlights can be very powerful. What I say for highlights is that you usually just want a couple. If they're to the point that people are scrolling through them, they're probably not gonna scroll. But if you have four or five or maybe even as little as three highlights, that should be fine. I like to have an about me or like a start here, just kind of like, hey, if if someone wants to quickly learn who I am from at a glance, here's that highlight. And then I like to create a highlight for each of my different offers or each of my different products or even each of my different freemiums. And when it comes to highlights, a mistake that a lot of people make is every story that they've ever posted about that thing goes on the highlight.

Brock Johnson [00:39:07]:
And so all of a sudden they end up with a highlight that's like seventeen minutes long. No one's watching that. No one's ever getting to the end. So instead, the majority of my highlights are like one or two frames long. So they're very quick. They're literally highlights about this product, this service, whatever it may be. And then I do have one kind of silly fun highlight that's just my, like, random dancing clips that is three hundred minutes long. But that's really more of just, like, a fun bonus highlight.

Brock Johnson [00:39:33]:
But those core highlights, they actually can be very helpful. And I I would say I get, I would say 50 to 100 DMs, which said another way is 50 to 100 leads per day from people who are watching those highlights and they're replying with whatever the keyword is and they're triggering some sort of automatic response. So highlights, don't sleep on them. They're not the most important thing, but they're definitely not something to be forgotten about.

Jay Clouse [00:39:56]:
How about the pin posts? Are those more important or less important than highlights?

Brock Johnson [00:40:00]:
I would say more important, slightly more important. They're kind of in that same vein though where it's like, you should care about them. They should be intentional what you have there, but they're not gonna make or break your Instagram. They're not gonna make or break your business, but they might, you know, they might add two to to 10% in terms of revenue, in terms of lead gen every single month. So it could be a big benefiting factor.

Jay Clouse [00:40:20]:
Have I missed anything really crucial on the Instagram product? We've covered a lot of ground very quickly.

Brock Johnson [00:40:26]:
Yeah. We have. And I think this is gonna be really helpful for people. I don't think so. The only thing I would say is there's two things that are kind of minor mistakes that everyone makes with their Instagram bio.

Jay Clouse [00:40:37]:
Let's hear it.

Brock Johnson [00:40:38]:
One is this thing called their category display. Most people just have it automatically turned on. It's the text that's oftentimes, it's either in like a very thin font or it's an even a blue font and it's right below the bold text. And your category display is usually the most generic description of what you do. Like it'll say entrepreneur or creator. It's like it's it's just not helpful. It would be like if we had this entire conversation and then you were like, Brock, any last words for the audience? And I was like, I'm a business owner. It's like, okay.

Brock Johnson [00:41:09]:
That's that's not helpful. Like, I I wanna know more. Right? So so just remove that. And remove that because you can only have four lines displayed in your bio. And if you type out four lines of text and then the category display goes on top, all of a sudden that fourth line is going to get cut off and truncated. So remove the category display. And then the newest bane of my existence is the threads badge, which is a button that takes people directly from your Instagram to your threads. Listen, if your goal is to grow on threads, knock your socks off.

Brock Johnson [00:41:38]:
Leave that big old button at the top of your bio. But if your goal is to grow on Instagram, why would you put a big button at the top of your bio that's taking people away from Instagram and it's taking up valuable digital real estate in your bio? So luckily, they made it very easy to find when you edit profile. There's a big toggle that says display threads badge. Just turn that off.

Jay Clouse [00:41:57]:
I haven't heard a lot of people talking about threads, the opportunity there. The really great thing about the launch of that, they made it possible to basically connect your existing Instagram followers there. So a lot of people started with, like, real connections if those people continue using threads. You're active on threads. Where does threads live in your mind as a business owner?

Brock Johnson [00:42:19]:
Threads is is is interesting. I kind of, and a lot of people have a similar experience with Threads. You first get on it, and the first few weeks are like, yeah, this is great. And for me, that was right when it launched. Everyone just got on this new platform. We're all talking about the same thing. We're all talking about Threads exclusively. But then after a few weeks, everyone was still only talking about threads.

Brock Johnson [00:42:37]:
So, the conversation died off. My interest died off. And then a few months later, I came back. And now, I'm back. Like you said, the really cool thing about threads is it's so highly integrated with Instagram that I have, like, almost 200,000 followers on threads. And realistically, I've probably only gained 5,000 followers of those, like, just from threads itself. I would say that 99 of those followers are just people who signed up. They clicked, yes.

Brock Johnson [00:43:01]:
Follow everyone I follow on Instagram and they automatically started following me. So it's nice. You kind of have like a built in audience when you get over to threads. I love using threads, not necessarily as a sales platform, not necessarily as a business driver, but more as a content tester and a place for me to experiment. Mhmm. And so oftentimes when I have a new idea or I'm working on a script or I have a hook that I'm just trying out for the first time, I'll post it on threads and I'll see how it does. I'll see if it gets responses, shares, whatever. And then if it performs well, I'll post it on Instagram.

Brock Johnson [00:43:35]:
I also do the kind of opposite where I just kind of thought dump on threads and I just share random ideas and random things I'm thinking about, random observations. And if one of those performs really well and it was just totally unplanned and unexpected, I'll turn it into an Instagram post. Or sometimes I'll just take a screenshot of it and post it onto Instagram that way. So it's a great way to kind of test your content in a low pressure environment and just see how it performs before putting it out onto your main platform like Instagram or YouTube or TikTok.

Jay Clouse [00:44:06]:
Have you seen anybody that's really using threads as, like, the main thrust of their digital content?

Brock Johnson [00:44:12]:
There seems to be some people, and there's definitely some people who are doing it very effectively. I've noticed that whenever you're posting links or selling on threads, it's just really not performing as well. When threads first started, there was this general consensus, which was silly to me at the time, that we're not gonna sell on this platform. We're not gonna use this platform to promote things. We're not gonna use this platform to drive people to links. And I was like, guys, come on. It's social media. At the end of the day, this is what's gonna happen.

Brock Johnson [00:44:40]:
Like I can get on board with, hey, let's not overwhelm the feed with ads and let's not make every post a sales post, but also like it's social media. If I have 200,000 people who are following me on a platform, I am not going to never sell or promote something. That would just be silly as a business owner. But, you know, I think that there are definitely people who are doing a better job and a worse job at it. I would say that myself personally, I'm not doing a great job of selling on threads. I use threads a lot more, like I said, for for content testing. And then occasionally, you know, if we have, like, a big flash sale or a new podcast episode that I wanna promote, I might leak it out on the threads. But I just know that for me, that's probably not gonna be a big driver.

Jay Clouse [00:45:20]:
Okay. Let's go back to Instagram then. You know, you just mentioned if I have a podcast I wanna promote. Most people who try to promote some off platform thing on Instagram have a really bad time doing it. I imagine you've tested and iterated and tried a bunch of things. What do you see as the most effective way to promote something off platform on an Instagram post of some kind?

Brock Johnson [00:45:42]:
So I would say if you're trying to grow a podcast from Instagram, you would be better off tying a cinder block to each foot and then jumping in a lake and trying to swim. It is that tough on Instagram to grow a podcast. And I can say this as someone who has a podcast that's a decade old and a podcast that is a year old. I have two different podcasts and growing a podcast on Instagram is flipping impossible. Because let's just think about human nature. It's not the algorithm. It's not that Zuckerberg hates podcasts. It's human nature.

Brock Johnson [00:46:14]:
If I'm scrolling through seven second video after seven second video and I'm consuming this short dopamine content and then someone's like, hey, do you wanna take forty five seconds to listen to me speak? Or forty five minutes, I should say, to listen to me speak? It's like, yeah. No. No. Thanks. Unless it's just that good of an episode, that good of a a guest or whatever, then there are exceptions. There is always exceptions. But for the most part, growing a podcast, very tough. No matter what you're trying to promote on Instagram, for most people, their sales related posts or their posts where they're go click the link in my bio.

Brock Johnson [00:46:44]:
They're saying anything like that. For most people, those are their worst posts. It's not because Zuckerberg hates links. It's not because the algorithm doesn't want you to to grow your business. It's because of what's going on with the engagement. Let's think about what happens as a human being if I'm like, hey, Jay, Here's the link to my new t shirt that I just dropped for merch. Go click the link in my bio if you want to buy it. If you are not interested, you will keep scrolling.

Brock Johnson [00:47:14]:
That's fine. There are some posts that everyone's not interested in. If you are interested in, you are peacing out, you're leaving that post, you're not engaging with the post at all, you're going somewhere else, you're finding the link in my bio, which most people have like a link menu or a stand store or a link tree, And now you have to like find the right link within that link to find the t shirt and then you get it's like a 17 step process for you. So it's not super enjoyable. But the most important part is no matter what, whether you are interested or you are not interested, you did not engage with the post. Because you did not engage with the post, the algorithm says, oh, this post is bad. Let's show it to less people. Now less people are seeing it.

Brock Johnson [00:47:52]:
Even less people have a potential to engage. And that's how it gets this like downward spiral snowball effect where your sales posts just flop every time. So instead, what I recommend using is a tool called DM Direct Message Automation. It is approved by Instagram as long as you're using an officially approved partner. My favorite officially approved partner who I've been a partner with since 2021, is called ManyChat, m a n y, like multiple, m a n y c h a t. ManyChat, totally green lighted by Instagram. And essentially what this allows people to do is instead of when you see that t shirt post, instead of saying, hey, Jay, go click the link in my bio. I can say, hey, Jay, comment the word shirt on this post, and I'll send you the link.

Brock Johnson [00:48:36]:
Now you can engage with the post. You're commenting the word shirt. Because of that, you now don't have to go hunt for the link. You as the consumer get the link served upright to you. Instantly and automatically, the link to the t shirt is getting sent to your DMs. Now you have that little red one notification. You have a new DM. You're going right to it.

Brock Johnson [00:48:56]:
You have the link. It's ready to go. It's increasing the engagement. It's increasing your interaction with Instagram. It's increasing your interaction with my account because now you have a comment, you have an automatic response, and now you have a DM as well. So all of that then creates a snowball into the best post you've ever had. And that's why if you look at my posts that have the most comments and the most engagement, they're all sales related posts. In fact, I'm kinda like, oh, dang.

Brock Johnson [00:49:21]:
When I look ahead at my schedule and I see that I have a post coming up that has no DM automation on it at all, I'm like, that's I mean, I hope it gets a lot of shares. I hope people like it because I know that they're not going to be commenting at their normal rate because I'm not using that call to action. So the ultimate secret sauce to making more sales on Instagram is DM automation.

Jay Clouse [00:49:42]:
And that also frees up this decision I see you've made where you have one single link in your profile. It's not like a Linktree type thing. It's probably like a main call to action because you don't need people to go there and choose things. They are making choices on a post by post basis based on the action you are asking them to take.

Brock Johnson [00:50:00]:
Exactly. Exactly. I'm relying on that to make sales. And occasionally, I will put a link menu or a link tree if I have, like, maybe multiple offers that I'm simultaneously promoting. I might put that in my bio. But for the most part, it's just the one single link.

Jay Clouse [00:50:13]:
Okay. Any parting advice for somebody who's fired up, wants to put more effort into Instagram? What should their next step be?

Brock Johnson [00:50:21]:
I love that you're fired up. I know you had a lot of information today, and I know it likely feels simultaneously exciting and slightly overwhelming. But the ultimate difference maker, the people who a year from now are going to be relistening to this episode compared to the people who a year from now are going to be recording an episode with you, Jay, and they're gonna be sharing their own results and their own case studies and their own success. The difference between those two people is the one who is successful is the one who's taking action, Not the one who's taking perfect action. Not the one who is taking, you know, the perfectly guided, correct action, but just the one who's taking action. Like literally just putting one foot in front of the other. So my word of advice to anyone listening is I'm proud of you. Pat yourself on the back for spending the last hour learning and educating yourself and growing personally.

Brock Johnson [00:51:10]:
Now go do something about it. Take out your phone right now and maybe you're even listening to this on your phone. Take out your phone right now and film something and post it. I don't care how bad it is. I don't care how rough it is. I don't care how how many mistakes you make. Record it and post it. If you wanna tag Jay and I so we can like it and if we see it and and and tell you how proud we are of you, then go for it.

Brock Johnson [00:51:29]:
But the bottom line is just start taking action. That's how you learn. That's how you improve. That's how you grow. That's how you make better content. It's quantity leads to quality. So start posting. And I know it's scary.

Brock Johnson [00:51:41]:
I know it's overwhelming, but it will get easier with time.

Jay Clouse [00:51:50]:
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and letting me know. I see every one of those reviews. It makes my morning when I see a new review and they go a long way to helping us grow the show. If you wanna learn more about Brock, you can visit him on Instagram at Brock eleven Johnson. That's Brock one one Johnson. There's also a link to that in the show notes. And finally, if you're interested in listening to another episode about Instagram, I recommend number two twenty nine with Natasha Willis. She is the chatbot queen, the founder of School of Bots, and it's one of my favorite recent episodes.

Jay Clouse [00:52:24]:
So there's a link to that in the show notes as well. Thanks for listening and I'll talk to you next week.