#254: Caleb Ralston – Meet the Secret Strategist Behind Alex Hormozi and GaryVee

Jay Clouse [00:00:00]:
The top 1% of creators, what does their volume actually look like in your experience?

Caleb Ralston [00:00:03]:
Usually around 300 plus per week. No. I know. It's insane.

Jay Clouse [00:00:08]:
Meet Caleb Ralston. Caleb is a strategist and brand builder for some of the biggest names in business. His breakthrough was back in 2018 when he grew Gary Vee's TikTok from 300 k to 3,500,000 followers in just three months, but he didn't stop there. In 2022, he joined Alex and Leila Hormozi's team as content employee number one, where he grew their audience from 1,200,000 to 11,500,000. Caleb just doesn't miss. And now that he's out on his own, he's here to help you. In this episode, you'll learn the content strategy he used for Gary and the Hermosys.

Caleb Ralston [00:00:46]:
I like to use the accordion method. If our volume is going up and we're getting less engagement, then we're not doing it correct.

Jay Clouse [00:00:54]:
How to use data to improve your content?

Caleb Ralston [00:00:56]:
Stop tracking everything. If it's not changing what

Jay Clouse [00:00:59]:
you do, it's pointless to track. And where to start if you're feeling overwhelmed.

Caleb Ralston [00:01:03]:
I use a framework that I call the brand journey framework. And basically, it's four questions that you ask yourself.

Jay Clouse [00:01:08]:
And now enjoy this conversation When I go into my feeds and I see content come up from some of the biggest creators out there, some that you've worked with, some that you haven't, I think to myself, well, they are winning a volume game. And the math I do in my head is, like, they're probably posting a couple times per day. How often are people like, the top 1% of creators, what does their volume actually look like in your experience?

Caleb Ralston [00:01:32]:
Usually around 300 plus per week.

Jay Clouse [00:01:35]:
Break that down for me.

Caleb Ralston [00:01:36]:
And we're counting, like, Instagram story tiles and everything like that. Right? You're putting out tweets. You're posting on Instagram stories. You're uploading shorts. Right? You might be uploading two shorts a day or two reels a day to your Instagram. Okay. And then you have YouTube long form. You might be posting couple posts to LinkedIn.

Caleb Ralston [00:01:56]:
The way I think about it is you're trying to maximize the amount of output, but I think a lot of people misunderstand the intention behind this. So like every team that I've worked with, volume is less about showing up everywhere and invading everybody's feed. That's a beautiful byproduct that occurs from volume. But I like to think of volume as data acquisition. So what I mean by that is I think we all will resonate with what I'm about to say. Quality is subjective as fuck. I think we all sit around and self analyze our content and say this is high quality or this isn't high quality. We should or shouldn't put this out because of that.

Caleb Ralston [00:02:32]:
And the reality is is none of us know what quality is. Jay, you don't know what quality is. I don't know what quality is. None of the creators watching this know. The only people that actually know and determine what quality is is your audience. And so if you put out more volume, especially in the beginning, you get to learn quicker what your audience deems as quality. I use the accordion method. You take that volume and the learnings you got from that and you contract it.

Caleb Ralston [00:02:59]:
You take the effort you were putting, let's use an example of 14 posts a week on Instagram. Once you have been posting for call it two months, you're gonna know what your audience is resonating with. Even if you're starting out the beginning, you have videos that all get one ninety nine views and then one got 413. Okay. Cool. More of that. And so what you do is you find the top performing content, and you take the same amount of effort you were putting into 14, and maybe you put that same effort into seven. But those seven posts are more in line with what your audience has said.

Caleb Ralston [00:03:29]:
Hey, we like this. We fuck with this. We want more of this.

Jay Clouse [00:03:32]:
How broad is your aperture to start though? Because what if I am really throwing spaghetti against the wall and I'm really traversing topics and one really goes off and that's not actually something that I want to spend a lot of time creating content around. Is that something you think about or not?

Caleb Ralston [00:03:46]:
I think that this is where you want to start your brand or if you've already started, you want to do this as soon as possible with more intentionality. So you want to reverse engineer the end goal. I use, a framework that I call the brand journey framework. And basically, it's four questions that you ask yourself. You start with the end in mind. Okay? I always like to reverse engineer from goal to today. What is the outcome that I want? Why am I doing this? Right? What, what am I wanting to have happen? The next question is, what would I have to be known for in order for that to happen? Okay. So now we're working closer to today.

Caleb Ralston [00:04:19]:
The third question is, what would I have to do in order to be known for the thing in order for the outcome I desired to occur? And then the final question, which takes us to right now, which is in order to do those things, what do I have to learn? What do I have to learn in order to do the things to then be known for the thing so that my outcome or desired outcome occurs. And I think what that helps you do is filter what kind of topics you're going to speak on. Because the the reality is is what you just described is the trap that 90% of creators fall into. They're just kind of talking about random shit, throwing spaghetti at a wall. Maybe the noodle they really don't care about sticks. And so then they just lean into that, but they build this brand and this expectation with the audience around something that they don't care about. So not only is it not leading towards the economic outcomes potentially that they want, but it's also building a brand around a topic they hate. And so they end up burning out very quickly because they were just doing something with no intention behind it.

Jay Clouse [00:05:18]:
I love this what do I want to be known for question because I've observed something similar in that at some point, the audience, the people outside of you need to take control and drive continued awareness of you because they know you for something. And that can happen accidentally. That can happen intentionally. When it happens accidentally and it's something that you don't wanna do as a bad time, but also sometimes you get known for something that you wanna be known for. And then I see a lot of creators just get bored, and they're like, this is starting to work. It's It's taken me five years to get here, but now I'm sick of this, and I don't wanna do it anymore. And that's, like, the moment, it seems, where they have the most opportunity to actually accelerate and build a real business on this. What's your perspective here? Is is it common that people who are intentional and become known for something that they also just get bored?

Caleb Ralston [00:06:09]:
Jay, I love your questions, man. You are such a thoughtful dude. I think that the industry and all the content gurus have fucked it up for everybody. They say niche down, niche down, niche down. And the reality is, is yes, that will allow you to grow much faster for sure. There's no debate there. And a lot of platforms prefer that. But I think what ends up happening is you create this trap again where you only talk about this one thing.

Caleb Ralston [00:06:36]:
Let's take it outside of content for a second. Like, if you have a partner, you know, girlfriend, wife, if you talk about one thing all the time, they're gonna hate you eventually. They're gonna get tired of it. And more than likely, you're not gonna like yourself either. And I think content is very similar. There is the realities that the platforms prefer you to be a little bit more narrow on your topics. But I think that as a brand, you don't have to be that way. I like to Gary always shared this analogy, and I think it's just incredible.

Caleb Ralston [00:07:06]:
If I show up here on this podcast, I'm gonna present myself one way. If I go riding on my Harley with the boys tonight, I'm gonna behave slightly differently. And And then if I go get brunch tomorrow morning with my mom, okay, cool, slightly different. I'm still Caleb in all of these different scenarios, but I'm gonna emphasize different parts of myself and speak differently given the context of where I am. I think brands can show up on social in the exact same way. Every platform allows you to present a different side of yourself. For example, Instagram is one where people can be the most personal. Right? With Instagram stories I think that allows you to speak to different topics and different things.

Caleb Ralston [00:07:40]:
And so what I would encourage people to do is actually figure out several different topics that you speak to. Have 80% of what your content is be about your core thing and use the other 20 to make yourself an interesting fucking human. Right? Whether we love him or hate him, Joe Rogan, I think, is a prime example of this, where he speaks to so many different topics. And so he gives his audience so many at bats to connect with him. Right? If you're into MMA, if you're into conspiracy theories, if you're into human optimization, like, all comedy, all these different things. And I think that what you'll find is there are people that listen to him infrequently because they like one topic. And then there's people that like three or four of the topics he speaks to, and those are the superfans. They don't care about the topic as much as they care about Joe's perspective on the topic.

Caleb Ralston [00:08:30]:
And I think that is the kind of brand that people really truly want to build because that's one where the audience isn't just consuming your content because the algorithm's feeding it to them. It's that they actually seek it out. So when something changes on TikTok, Instagram, instead of you disappearing and them not giving a shit, they're actually gonna go seek you out because they care about your take on whatever.

Jay Clouse [00:08:52]:
I think that is certainly the brand that people want to build. But if I'm listening to this and I'm getting started and I haven't really gotten any traction or even become known for any particular thing, how wide can I like, how wide can the interest that I have be on these platforms? Is it really plausible to talk about three to five different things on different platforms and build association with any one particular topic.

Caleb Ralston [00:09:23]:
Well, all brand, in my opinion, is or branding is just a an intentional pairing of relevant things done consistently. That's why I like to have 80% of my content be around one core subject matter. And the other 20% isn't necessarily where you're a subject matter expert. It's just your interests. So, like, for me, for example, 80%, like, I'm gonna start this is crazy. I'm gonna start making content this year. And 80% of it is gonna be around brand building and organic content strategies. Right? Building teams, everything around that.

Caleb Ralston [00:09:57]:
But then the other 20%, I'm gonna talk about hardcore shows and my Harley and all that shit. And I think it's not speaking about Harley's as, like, a subject matter expert. It's just showing me as a human. I think in the beginning, I recommend people spend more time focusing on that core thing and less about their ancillary interests. And so you can establish credibility by doing that. And I also think that people misunderstand kind of what I mean as far as like you have to like make content about the Harley. No, I might film shorts of me talking about how to build a media team while I'm riding my Harley. And so it's like a combining of interests rather than solely talking about it.

Caleb Ralston [00:10:42]:
You know, if you love cereal, for example, fucking eat cereal while you're talking about your shit. If you love drinking tea like Gary, tea with Gary v. I like the pairing of things. I also think, as a side note, back to your earlier question, this is a way to avoid burnout. It makes content more interesting. Like, you see all these motherfuckers out there on the golf course making content, but But I actually think it's genius because they're pairing filming content, something that for a lot of people is, like, anxiety inducing with something that they enjoy.

Jay Clouse [00:11:12]:
With a generation of kids coming into adulthood, professional parts of their career, and they've wanted to be YouTubers, I I see them starting to create content, but they don't have, the lived experience that somebody like a Gary v, a Hormozi had when they started creating content. What do you say to somebody who knows they wanna create content, but they don't act they haven't actually, like, done anything yet. How do I get started in the content world? What should I be doing?

Caleb Ralston [00:11:40]:
I think share your unique perspective on how you are going about learning the thing. You know, you're not the master yet, So share the journey of how you're becoming the master. I truly believe that everyone goes about learning in a unique way. And you and I both know on your way up, you make a lot of mistakes. What I would lean into is sharing those mistakes, helping other people avoid those. And when you learn something that does work, share that as well. And so it's less of a, this is how, and this is what I'm learning. This is what I am seeing right now.

Caleb Ralston [00:12:17]:
And I will update you in three months to let you know if this was actually effective or if this was a waste of my time. So it's less of a posturing like an expert and more sharing and being vulnerable like, I'm not the expert, but I'm an expert learner, and I am really trying my best and I want to take you on that journey.

Jay Clouse [00:12:34]:
After a quick break, we talk about repurposing, reposting and repeating yourself. So stick around. We'll be right back. And now back to my conversation with Caleb Ralston. When I'm thinking back to this point you made about, okay, people really at top, they're doing somewhere on the the level of 400 pieces of content per week. I think to myself, how would I talk about that many things? Talk to me about repetition and repeating yourself and ideas, and what level of appetite I have to have for that to play the volume game.

Caleb Ralston [00:13:08]:
Another incredible question. You have to be very comfortable with saying the same shit over and over in different ways. This is why stories are so important because stories allow you to say or share the same concept in many different scenarios. So that's, in my opinion, the key. Like the other reality is you're making shit up. Right? Like, in order to say new shit, you have to make new shit up. So, again, something that Gary, and I'll reference him a lot because I learned so much from that man. Something that he used to say a lot is I'm gonna say the same shit over and over in slightly different ways because you never know when it's going to hit home for somebody.

Caleb Ralston [00:13:44]:
Okay. And so, like, you never know when the analogy, the scenario that you present this concept in is going to hammer home for one person. And if it hammers home for one person, then it's worth it. The way that you create diversity and newness is the scenarios and stories. And so like, you know, there's the whole document don't create thing. And I think a lot of people interpret that as just having a videographer follow you around. But I actually think it's just documenting the stories that you are living. If you have clients that you're working with, for example, sharing their success stories.

Caleb Ralston [00:14:21]:
And, you know, for a lot of people, they have a community of individuals that they're helping and serving. Well, that's a community of success stories that you have right there. You're probably sharing four or five core principles, but the way that your audience or your members are putting those principles into action is totally different, right? Especially if they're cross industry. So I think it's it's leaning in heavily to story.

Jay Clouse [00:14:44]:
What do you think about repackaging ideas versus literally republishing older content? Does that have a place in your content strategy?

Caleb Ralston [00:14:51]:
I think that less and less it's effective to do, like, reposting exactly the same. If we were having this conversation two years ago, I would tell you repost all your biggest hitters. If you're an artist going on tour, everyone wants to hear your greatest hits. But now we're at a point where I am seeing with a lot of different brands I work with that the platforms are actually penalizing an exact reupload. And so what I would encourage people to do is either have your team re edit it or, yes, refilm it. Really, what I prefer to do is take top performers and figure out kind of like what you said, repackaging them in a way that works correctly for another platform. An example is there was a client that we were working with. They had a quote that they put out on Twitter that went really viral.

Caleb Ralston [00:15:36]:
Then what we did is we were like, okay, cool. This is a signal that the audience really fucks with this. What does the Instagram version of this look like? Well, what we did is we printed the quote and took a photo of it in a aesthetically pleasing environment. Okay? And that was their top performing Instagram post in the last two years. So that murdered. So then what did we do? Well, we took that cue, and we're like, we should make a short on this. Let's just see, like, if they like this in video form. So we use this exact quote as the hook, and then we had them expand on why they came up with the quote and what the scenario was and blah blah blah.

Caleb Ralston [00:16:09]:
And that fucking murdered. Did really well. And so then we were like, well, there's a lot more thought behind this. We could probably make a long form video. So then we created a YouTube video off of it. Now, was it their top performing YouTube video? No. But it was definitely in their top 10. And so this is where I think you can learn from one platform that a concept or a thought is valid and your audience loves it.

Caleb Ralston [00:16:33]:
But then you have to make sure that back to what we were talking about earlier, you show up contextual to the environment you're in. Instagram is way different than LinkedIn, and LinkedIn is certainly way different than TikTok. And so you need to show up slightly differently in those different scenarios. But to your point, yes, if you have a winning topic or a winning format, you can absolutely repackage it contextual to other platforms.

Jay Clouse [00:16:57]:
It sounds magical to, like, publish something. It collects data, and then you have a team on your behalf seeing that data, analyzing it, ideating on how to use it on other platforms, and kinda leading the charge on that front. Is that typical of the the 1% of folks, or are there teams where the the main face, the main voice of the platforms is really driving those decisions? Like, I'm trying to contextualize for somebody listening to this. Should that be your job to figure out, hey, this worked. Let's apply it to other places. Or is it plausible to hire somebody who is going to do that on your behalf?

Caleb Ralston [00:17:36]:
I think it depends on you, the individual. So if that is something that you love and you're deep in your content and in socials and you understand those nuances, then yes, it should be you. But if that's not your priority and your priority is elsewhere in your business organization, what have you, then you should hire somebody that compliments that. One of the most important things and one of the biggest mistakes a lot of people make is they look at these big creators and they just try to model after them. But that doesn't work, right? Like, it's like if I were, you know, I'm going on a journey where I'm going to get back into lifting for the first time in years. And if day one, I'm like, I'm gonna do Ronnie Coleman's routine. I'm fucked. Like, I'm getting injured.

Caleb Ralston [00:18:12]:
Like, it's not gonna work. Right? And I think the same exists for looking at these big creators and trying to model after them. No. You should reverse engineer your strengths, your preferences, and build it around that rather than what you've seen other people do. There's been people that I've worked for that they drove the ship, and then there's been others that I've worked for where I was doing more of the driving. And I don't think one is right or wrong. I think it is completely dependent on you, the individual.

Jay Clouse [00:18:40]:
When you're tracking data on some of the best performing posts, do you have a historical database of, like, everything that's been posted that you can filter and go back and back and back and, like, dig into the archives? Or are you doing this on a shorter term basis where you're, like, let's look at last week's content, let's look at this last month's content? What's your data storage and tracking look like in one of these operations?

Caleb Ralston [00:19:01]:
Occasionally, we'll go into the historic archives, but I do like to look more at, like, the last ninety days. I think that's, it provides a lot more relevancy as you are very keenly aware. Everything's changing constantly on these platforms. And so what was working a year ago, I don't really wanna measure against because everything has changed at this point. And as far as tracking data, I I have a couple of interesting things here. One, I would encourage everyone in in the audience, stop tracking everything. I think a lot of people get overexcited with just, like, crazy amounts of data. But the reality is, is if it's not changing what you do, it's pointless to track.

Caleb Ralston [00:19:36]:
Let's be real. Most of us, we look at a big spreadsheet with like 15 data points and we're like, overwhelmed. And we don't know how to interpret it. Right? It's completely pointless. It doesn't help in any way, shape, or form. So I would reduce the amount that you're tracking to only metrics that change what you would do, especially when when you have a team. You get to this point where people on the team are reporting on performance from different platforms and they'll say things like this video on Instagram got a hundred k views or this tweet got, you know, 1,500 likes and nobody knows what that actually means. Right? Because we don't have an established benchmark.

Caleb Ralston [00:20:13]:
We don't know what normal is and so we have no idea if that's good or bad. I like to report data on multipliers, outliers. So what I do is I establish a benchmark. Let's say, for example, a hundred ks is our benchmark. If we have a new video that got a 50 ks views, instead of saying 150, I like to say this was a 1.5 x outlier. Or on the flip side, if the benchmark is a hundred ks, I like to report on it as this is a point five x underperformer, basically. And what this does is this gets everybody, the talent, the team, and anybody on the marketing team or outside of it on the same page, understanding what is actually going on here. And secondly, you can all of a sudden take a very quick look and see what you should stop doing and what you should continue doing.

Caleb Ralston [00:21:01]:
Because I know you've seen this, Jay, like the amount of individuals out there and teams that are posting shit that they know is not going to work, but they've made it, so they're fucking posting it. Or they've always done it that way, so they're posting it is absurd. And what this allows you to do is very quickly look at it and go, why do we keep posting these podcast clips this way? None of them are working. Like, we've only had one that's been above a one x.

Jay Clouse [00:21:26]:
Either on your teams or you're auditing a potential client, you see their content, and they're consistently doing something that's not working. Does that have a negative impact on how platforms treat their account? If they're posting, but it's just not actually performing well, is there a net negative to bad, quote unquote, content?

Caleb Ralston [00:21:43]:
I don't ever wanna get into the weeds of pretending like I know the algorithms and stuff like that. So what I will speak to is the human psychology side of it, which is if you continually post stuff that people don't care about, yes, they will eventually care less about your content. And when they see you pop up, they will be less inclined to stop scrolling and watch your shit.

Jay Clouse [00:22:03]:
So if I'm in a season of trying to increase output, how do you, as a team or as an individual, maintain a certain standard of quality when you're kind of stretching yourself to a new level of output that you're trying to reach?

Caleb Ralston [00:22:18]:
I mean, I, again, look at how the audience is reacting to the content as our measure of quality. If our volume is going up and we're getting less engagement, less impressions, then we're not doing it correctly. And so that's where I like to use the accordion method. So like you can expand the amount you're making, but if you're not seeing anything come from that, well, then I would encourage people. And again, I don't like to say reduce the volume and increase the quality because then again, we're getting into that subjectiveness. I like to say reduce the volume and increase the effort per piece that you make. Right? No matter what, when you're posting, there are outliers. Now, they might be like not super significant, right? It might not be like, you know, 2,000 views, 2,000 views, 50 ks.

Caleb Ralston [00:23:07]:
It might be, like, 2,000 views, 2,000 views, 4,500. Right? But that's where I, especially in the beginning, that's the information that you have. So that's what you have to go off of.

Jay Clouse [00:23:17]:
The thing about content today and just social media in general, we're so in it, and just about everybody creates to at least a tiny degree. Right? Like, they're posting photos to Instagram. And so when they see people at the top of the mountain, they have a sense of confidence, maybe a false confidence that they understand what it took to make that piece of content because they've done the action a little bit. And so as you're talking about these people coming in and saying, I want to do this thing. I wanna build my brand, and you don't think they know what it takes. Let's dig into that a little bit. What does it actually take in terms of time, capital? You mentioned privacy, which I think is really interesting. What does it take to operate at that level?

Caleb Ralston [00:24:01]:
Well, it depends on the kind of creator you are. I think a lot of people watching this probably are in the camp of they're doing it themselves or they have a very small team, one or two individuals potentially. And I apologize if I'm getting that wrong. But I think, you know, for the individuals who are operating a business, let's say, and they're building a team around them, that's gonna be a couple of salaries. And so that's a big cost right there. Right? You also have the time that you have to commit not only to filming the content or capturing the content, but coming up with the idea. And I think that's where a lot of people make the mistake is they don't put a lot of effort into the idea. I believe the idea is a minimum of 80% of the formula.

Caleb Ralston [00:24:41]:
Ideas are where you win, not in the filming or editing. And so I think people don't quite realize that it's not just like let me grab my phone and film some selfies real quick off top and then just post them. That is totally a good way to get started, but at the top you're putting a lot more thought into it. You're putting so much effort. Again, like I think you'll you'll probably notice throughout this episode, I really hammered the preproduction side of things. I think a lot of it comes down to that. And then privacy, if you end up becoming a fairly well known brand online, things change dramatically. And, you know, there's a lot of individuals that have a couple hundred thousand followers that still when they go to major metropolitan cities, they have people noticing them.

Caleb Ralston [00:25:24]:
And there's a lot that people don't realize. Like, if you're at a restaurant having dinner with friends and a fan is nearby, I mean, that that is an interesting thing. You have you end up typically being a little bit more thoughtful and intentional with what you're talking about there. And that might sound minor if you're watching this and haven't experienced it, but I myself have not experienced it, but I've been around many who have and it does change things. It's very interesting. And so there should be a lot of thought into why am I doing this? What is the outcome that I am wanting to create in building my brand, in creating content online and scaling this thing? Because if you don't have a really good intention behind it, I would argue for a lot of people, it's actually not worth it.

Jay Clouse [00:26:11]:
If you start working with a creator, let's say they pass your your bar of they seem committed. They seem like they have the resources. They have the pieces in place. You go in day one. What do you start doing to amplify this brand?

Caleb Ralston [00:26:27]:
Typically, it's investing in the team. And so it's it's looking at what is the current team structure, who's doing what, and where do we need to invest in training? I believe a lot has to especially for those that and a lot of the the people we end up partnering with have a team or wanting to build a team. Right? So I'll speak to that first. I believe the team is everything. I think they are the amplifier of your vision. If you are wanting to be at that top 1%, you can't do it alone. And so I think a lot of teams, unfortunately, operate on a top down approach where whoever is leading the team is the one that's driving the strategy across the board. But the reality is, is there's not a person on earth who is the world's best or an expert on all the different platforms.

Caleb Ralston [00:27:13]:
I'm not. But what I am really good at is giving individuals the environment to where they can become experts on one specific platform and help drive the strategy from a bottom up approach. And so a lot of what I'm doing in the very beginning, a lot of the partners that we have for 2025, we're working on their team first before we address anything in the current content that they're working on. It's investing in bringing on the right editors, the right videographer, the right creative director, establishing the right processes, establishing a trading cadence, making sure that everyone understands why are we making educational content? What are we doing with that? Like, what is the purpose of it? Right. And getting everybody on that same page, understanding that, like, we don't want to make subjective creative calls. We want to make calls informed on data. Right? If we're making art, we're doing that on our own time as passion projects. This is creative that converts, and that's what we want to be building.

Caleb Ralston [00:28:07]:
And so I think step one is always evaluating the team.

Jay Clouse [00:28:10]:
Is there a standard sort of org chart in your mind that you're looking to see? Do we have people to fit these roles?

Caleb Ralston [00:28:16]:
Back to what we were talking about earlier, not really, because I'm always trying to build a team as a reverse engineered system for the individual that we're building around. And so like one of the best pieces of advice Gary gave me, when I moved on from Vayner was when you go and do this for other people, don't build what I built, build what they need, look at what their preferences, their skills are. For example, there are plenty of people that build their brand to a pretty significant level online and never make videos because they don't want to be in video. Well, then the typical org chart of having a videographer and an editor is pointless. Right? And so I that's where a lot of my counterparts that that do this, they're great. They have, like, kind of a playbook that they run everybody through, and that's a high volume game. And I think that's super smart for that approach. But for me, I don't wanna work with a bunch of different partners.

Caleb Ralston [00:29:06]:
I want a very select few that we're building a completely custom system for because I think that's what actually lasts.

Jay Clouse [00:29:13]:
How can somebody watching this do kind of an a self audit to say, what what can I do to make a team a better fit for me?

Caleb Ralston [00:29:22]:
So what is it? What is your preferred medium? Okay. Now a lot of people watching this are probably down to do all four. Okay? And the four are video, audio, graphics slash, like, visual, like, post, and then written. Okay? So you have four different mediums to choose from. A lot of characters watching this are probably down to do all four. That's amazing. But what you wanna do, you wanna pick the one that you think you show up best in. Ideally, from a optimization standpoint, it's video.

Caleb Ralston [00:29:52]:
That's the highest leverage activity. Right? You can film a long form video. You can extract shorts. You can extract the transcript and turn it into LinkedIn posts. You can pull quotes. You can pull stills from it to use as post. All of that. You get so much more traction out of that.

Caleb Ralston [00:30:04]:
But if you hate video, you're not gonna stick with it. So you gotta choose your preferred medium, and then you hire accordingly. So if video is your preferred medium, cool. In the beginning, you can film and edit yourself, but eventually you get to a point where there's a bottleneck. And the question is, what is the bottleneck? Is it me filming? Is it ideas? Is it editing? Do I have a ton of footage, but it's taking me forever to edit? You want to hire based on the constraints that pop up on your team, not what you see other teams doing. We hire people to solve problems, not to fill an org chart. Okay. And so you want to identify what is the bottleneck.

Caleb Ralston [00:30:38]:
All of us start making our own content most likely. Very few of us start with a team. Right? And so you eventually reach a point where it's like, okay. I got a million ideas. I can't film any of these. Or I got a million ideas. I've filmed them all. Lord knows I don't have time to edit all of these.

Caleb Ralston [00:30:54]:
Right? And that's what you want to hire around. And slowly, every time that you bring on a new role, another constraint or bottleneck will be revealed, and that's what you wanna hire around.

Jay Clouse [00:31:06]:
I love this idea of identify the bottleneck, and and higher based on that. Let's say someone watching this is down for at least doing video and text, and audio. I don't think as many people watching this do the graphic stuff. Do you foresee that people typically have verticals around platforms then? Or are you having cross functional teams where it's like, I'm an editor and I'm editing long form, I'm editing shorts, I'm editing it for reels in TikTok. Is that practical?

Caleb Ralston [00:31:38]:
Oh, Jay. I love this question. The way I build teams is I do prefer specialists. Okay? But in the beginning, you can't have a team of specialists because you have many different areas that you need to deploy to and very few headcount. So what I prefer is specialists who have interest in other areas and are willing to wear multiple hats in the beginning. That is how you have to start. Now the final form and the best version, yes, you want to like we talked earlier, like the best version of social or interest media content, whatever you wanna call it these days, you wanna make sure that you are making it contextual to that platform. And the best version of that is one creative working on that platform twenty four seven so that they are ingrained.

Caleb Ralston [00:32:22]:
They understand it. They eat, live, breathe, no sleep, that. Okay? But that's expensive. And so in the beginning, what I recommend people do is they identify their top three platforms that they're gonna prioritize. Okay? And that is what you wanna create your media, your content for. Okay? So let's just say, for example, it's YouTube, LinkedIn, and Instagram. Well, okay. You wanna make sure that your team, you and your team, are only creating for those three platforms.

Caleb Ralston [00:32:51]:
You're not thinking about the other ones. And then your next three in priority, they are the platforms you're just reposting to. I like to call them maintenance. Okay? And if you're in the beginning, you don't have the resources to be able to deploy three people to three platforms because you only have one person on your team. Right? And so what I like to do I'm a Lord of the Rings nerd, so I use this analogy. You wanna use the Eye of Sauron approach. You want to tackle one platform at a time. For us, for example, we're making content this year, and YouTube is number one.

Caleb Ralston [00:33:22]:
LinkedIn's number two. Instagram's number three. YouTube is what we are focusing on mostly right now. We're optimizing that. And once we have that to a point where I feel good, I will put it on what I call maintenance mode, and then we will attack LinkedIn. Right? That doesn't mean that when we're optimizing YouTube, we're not posting in these other areas, but we're not allocating more than 20% of our efforts towards those.

Jay Clouse [00:33:45]:
As I've kind of explored hiring on my own, you know, there's always this question of, like, do I hire somebody full time on salary? Do I hire a contractor full time, but mostly with me? Do I hire an agency where it feels like maybe it's safer because then that person can't just leave me? But then I also feel like the incentives aren't totally aligned and they're just trying to get the, like, most acceptable version to me that I'm happy with, but takes them the least time. How do you think about these for somebody who's getting started and trying to hire?

Caleb Ralston [00:34:14]:
Agencies are for expedited learning. They typically are experts and they require no like onboarding. Right. Like they can just go immediately. I think contractors are great for experimenting and validating an idea, with low investment costs. Right. So like maybe, for example, if you're, like, I've been blowing up on LinkedIn with my written and my personal brand is great there, but I really want to start tackling YouTube and Instagram and TikTok. Maybe you're not, like, I'm a % certain I'm gonna be great on camera.

Caleb Ralston [00:34:47]:
Cool. Hire a videographer for three months as a contractor and test it out. Validate that that is actually a good investment of your time and money. So that's what I like to use contractors for. You should more than likely do like a trial with them. That's becoming more and more acceptable in our industry, and I fucking recommend it so much. It's not only good for you, it's good for the other individual to make sure that they feel like you're a good fit for them. So I think it's great for both parties.

Caleb Ralston [00:35:12]:
Make sure you pay fairly for that trial. Some people try and, like, pay lower than what the actual salary or rate would be. Don't do that. That's fucking dumb.

Jay Clouse [00:35:22]:
It's very shortsighted. It's like I'm doing a trial because I think this could be a long term thing, but let's start off on the wrong foot.

Caleb Ralston [00:35:27]:
Exactly. And actually, what I like to do is I like to sometimes, if possible, if budget allows, I like to pay a higher rate for those three months because they're not a full time employee. Right? And so, like, they're incurring the risk of not having benefits, etcetera. And so, like, I do my best even now with my own business. Like, that's what I try to do. Now full time, there's a lot there. Right? Like, one, you're gonna bear a lot more costs. If you're paying somebody a hundred k, they're costing you the company like 125, hundred and 30 ks.

Caleb Ralston [00:35:55]:
Right? Cause you're paying for benefits, workers, all that different shit that the employee doesn't see. So they're an investment. That is a big cost. That's why I like to validate these ideas with a contractor. But the beauty of full time employees is you're able to establish a stronger culture and they have more brand alignment and they're more aligned with their incentives, I should say, are more aligned with where you're wanting to go. The thing that you'll find with agencies more than contractors and full time is oftentimes they have fairly high turnover on their creatives. And so maybe you get some consistent work for like two or three weeks, but then the notes that you've been giving, all of a sudden they come back. They keep making the same mistakes because they have a new editor that didn't maybe get everything, passed off to them correctly or whatever.

Caleb Ralston [00:36:40]:
That's been my biggest gripe with agencies. Right? On contractors, maybe you're not their full time priority, and they might have other brands they're working on. Right. And so you don't get that continuity that I like to think of it like discretionary effort, right? Like when they're going on a walk, are they thinking about you or their other clients? Right. And then the full time there's the beauty because they're working for you and their discretionary efforts going towards you. You're able to spend a lot more time with them legally. You can actually require that they're on meetings, contractors, you can't require to be on like that's illegal. And 99% of you watching this are probably doing that.

Caleb Ralston [00:37:16]:
Look into how you're operating as a side note. You have a lot more power there and a lot more responsibility. Full time employees, I believe it is your job to invest in them fully. Whenever I hire somebody, I wanna know what is their long term goal, and it's my job to make sure I within reason, we're a business, and we have things that we have to do, but I wanna give you as many opportunities to get closer to that to gain the skills necessary. If you come in as a video editor saying you want to be a creative director, I want to invest in those opportunities, right? On the contractor side, you're not going to do that. And so you have less investment, but you also have less loyalty. So I think that there's benefits to all of them. We have a project that we're going to be releasing soon.

Caleb Ralston [00:38:00]:
We're actually do like a full breakdown and we have like a whole table that you can walk through that basically is a, you know, benefit analysis and it allows you to determine at what stage you're at right now. Are you in the contractor phase? Are you in the agency phase? Because the thing is, is if you hire an agency, I don't want to use them long term. I want to bring them on short term to learn the platform, to gain the skills and invest in my team, and then we rip on our own.

Jay Clouse [00:38:29]:
Interesting. So when you're thinking about hiring an agency, if you hire an agency, it sounds like you have the implicit assumption that actually that agency should really understand the platforms and we're learning from the agency, not just outsourcing a job to the agency.

Caleb Ralston [00:38:43]:
Correct. I wouldn't hire an agency that isn't world class at it. Now, obviously, I've had the luxury of working with brands that have budgets. Right? So, like, let's just call it the elephant in the room. Right? A lot of us don't have maybe the budget to spend 15 to 20 k a month on just one platform agency. Right? What you want is not a social media agency. Those are dog shit. Sorry if anybody has one of those.

Caleb Ralston [00:39:07]:
But the reality is is they're not gonna be an expert on any of them. Right? And maybe that's all you can get. So cool. Do that now. But what you really want is an agency that specializes on one platform. You get so much more out of them. I can tell you from years of experience and spending not thousands not hundreds of millions of dollars on agencies, you get way more value out of specialized agencies. I'm gonna offend people probably, but it's the same as like the social media manager role.

Caleb Ralston [00:39:37]:
I don't hire those because they're a generalist and they don't understand. You know, Jay, like, these platforms are evolving so fast, it's impossible for one person to keep up with all of them. And it's the same on the agency side.

Jay Clouse [00:39:49]:
Yeah. I think a lot of people come to this question of, like, do I hire an agency versus a contractor? And they're just thinking, I want the output of, like, video edited. You know, they're thinking about, like, let me take this from raw material to asset and not necessarily asset optimized for a platform. So it's interesting to hear when you hear agency, you think predominantly like institutional knowledge of a specific platform beyond the asset.

Caleb Ralston [00:40:14]:
What you're describing is twenty fifteen versus twenty twenty five. 20 15, it was very valid to be like, I'm gonna hire a video production agency that's going to make my content because all the platforms behave very similarly. Right? Like I remember in 2018, if I posted a clip on TikTok and it did really well, I knew it was gonna murder on Instagram, on Facebook, everywhere I posted it. Now, not the case at all. You'll have clips that do incredible on TikTok that flop or vice versa with Instagram. Right? And so I think the landscape has changed, but a lot of agencies have not.

Jay Clouse [00:40:49]:
What's the next thing you do?

Caleb Ralston [00:40:50]:
How do

Jay Clouse [00:40:50]:
you get to the actual content strategy that should happen for that client?

Caleb Ralston [00:40:55]:
Well, it comes from understanding what they're wanting to have happen. So I walk through the brand journey framework with them and make sure that I understand what the outcomes are that they want. Right. And that takes us to today's actions. Right. Like, what are they doing in order to be known for the thing? Cool. Well, if that's the case, then we create the strategy around showing them doing it. Right.

Caleb Ralston [00:41:15]:
I think we live in a world right now where a lot of people are sitting on their couch, talking to a camera, telling you about things. And this is where I think the value of vlogs come in. I think vlogs are not necessarily a width play, they're a depth play, and they show the expertise. And so for a lot of people that I partner with, I emphasize figuring out their version, their formatting of a vlog. Back to what we were talking about earlier with trust and how important trust is. The skepticism in the audience's eyes right now in the world is at an all time high. Why? Because there's a lot of fucking hucksters out there that are talking shit that they're not actually doing. Right? Tons of them on TikTok and YouTube right now.

Caleb Ralston [00:41:56]:
The competitive moat that you can create around yourself is showing yourself in action, showing that you actually do these things. And so that's usually one of the first things that I wanna tackle. Again, I know it's not a with play. These aren't getting millions of views, but what it is doing is it's establishing a very strong foundation with your core audience, the ones who will be your champions and will elevate your brand. It shows them that you are actually what you say you are. And so I like to start there. And then what I want to do is start getting more contextual to the platform. So it's like figuring out, okay, if we've identified YouTube's number one, okay, we do need to make direct camera videos because right now, still to this day, that is working really well.

Caleb Ralston [00:42:36]:
And so we need to figure out your version of that where we can demonstrate your knowledge. Right? And so, yeah, it's really taking it platform by platform and figuring out what are the formats and mediums that show your expertise, your knowledge in the best way possible. I'm a big fan of demonstrate, right? Like a lot of people are just talking, but you need to show it in action And whatever that that's different versions for different people. For some people, if they have a group coaching call, cool. It's just making sure that that makes it online even at the expense, in my opinion, of views. Because ultimately, I think that brand is far more than just views. And so you want to make sure that you are playing I typically, when we're making content, I like to think of it as one objective. Either this is a width play, we're trying to get maximum amount of awareness, or this is a depth play, we're trying to build a deeper connection and trust with our current audience.

Caleb Ralston [00:43:35]:
And if you aim for one or the other, that's great. If you try to do both, you're not going to accomplish either.

Jay Clouse [00:43:41]:
In a single piece of content, you mean?

Caleb Ralston [00:43:43]:
Correct. Yeah. And the reason why I like to do this is because I like the team and the talent I'm working with to understand what winning looks like. But you don't understand what winning looks like if you don't define what that is on the upfront. And so I like to call it out in production. I'm like, this video, we all know this is a super deep heady video. This is not going wide, but everyone who watches this is gonna be like, damn, Jay's a fucking expert.

Jay Clouse [00:44:06]:
Love that. So when you are thinking about the proportion of width versus depth content, what is your typical go to?

Caleb Ralston [00:44:15]:
Just like I said up top, I I follow the accordion method. You have to contract and expand it over time. In the beginning, I actually recommend a lot of my counterparts would say, go the width play, right? Like make really wide content, top of funnel, get more people. But if you make content around the fact that like your Starbucks order hack, for example, right, and that's not what you're, you're not a fitness person, you're a business person, but that's what you do. You're gonna get a lot of audience that just wants more of that content. So it goes to what we were talking about at the top where you trap yourself, right? So in the beginning, I believe people should build far more deep content, demonstrate your expertise, establish that you are a true subject matter expert. That's why video number two that I'm gonna be posting on my YouTube is gonna be like super in-depth. Right? Like, I want to establish to the audience that I'm gonna be building.

Caleb Ralston [00:45:08]:
I'm not just one of those guys that's talking about the current Instagram hack that I've seen Mosseri post and that I'm just regurgitating. Right? Like, no, I've been in this for sixteen fucking years. Like, I have some thoughts based on data, right? I believe you want to build that strong foundation. The people that do the other, they have a very tough time transitioning into their core subject matter that leads to their core offer. And so in the beginning, establish depth and over time, I believe people should then start to add more context to who they are to their brand.

Jay Clouse [00:45:46]:
After one last break, we talk about the role content actually plays in your overall business. So don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. And now please enjoy the rest of my conversation with Caleb Ralston. How do you think about the role content plays in the business as a whole? I know it sounds kind of abstract, but we're kind of making some assumptions about why people are making content, you know, building the brand. But talk to me about what you thought about in terms of content and how that affects the bottom line of a business.

Caleb Ralston [00:46:16]:
I believe that what you are doing with educational content is you are just trying to scale trust and trust is the currency that precedes the transaction. Okay? Trust is everything. It makes everything move way faster and smoother in business, both on the front end and the back end. That means customer acquisition and talent acquisition. And so ultimately, if we are trying to scale trust and we believe that branding is the intentional pairing of relevant things done consistently, which then creates the byproduct brand when the audience inherently associates those things together, then what we're wanting to do with our educational content in the beginning is we want to intentionally pair our brand with success stories. If you're making educational content, you should probably have clients, customers, community members, whatever, that have had success off of what you're sharing. And so what you want to do is your volume, your percentage of content should be overwhelmingly case studies, customer testimonial stories, but not in the boring way that lives three tabs deep on your website that nobody watches in a twenty twenty five contextual way. So what you wanna do is you wanna share those stories.

Caleb Ralston [00:47:29]:
And what happens is as you do that consistently, your audience will start to associate you with those success stories. And the cool thing that happens there is then they begin to trust what you have to say more, and they go from just passively consuming what you're saying to starting to take action. Education is actually occurring because they're changing their actions. They're no longer doing things the same. And when they do that, they're going to start to get the results. Their desired outcome starts to occur. And when that happens, the intentional pairing changes. They no longer associate you with general success.

Caleb Ralston [00:48:06]:
They start to associate you with their success. And when they associate you with their success, they trust you an immense amount. And what they start to realize is, wow. I get so much more in return for what I invest. Whenever Jay says something, I'm investing my time in consuming it, acting on it, and look at the outcome I get. So then the moment that you make your audience aware of an offer you have, they have an incredible belief that what you're offering is going to give them far more than what they invest in it. And so you're essentially teaching your audience, hey. When I say something, you get far more value acting on it than what you invest.

Caleb Ralston [00:48:52]:
All of a sudden now your team is no longer trying to do this like woo woo mysticism and making content. It's like, okay, cool. If we're making educational content, our whole goal is how do we make it easier for the audience to change what they do after consuming this piece of content?

Jay Clouse [00:49:06]:
When it comes to the offers, where do explicit, like, calls to action for offers play a role in your content strategy?

Caleb Ralston [00:49:16]:
The best version, and then we can work back to reality, is you never make a right hook in your organic content. We all know, everyone watching this, you all know when you do that, nobody fucking engages. It's a flop every time. It's a lower performer. Every once in a while, I'm sure we've all had that one that worked, but by and large, they don't work. So what did you just do? Well, you just kind of annoyed your audience. Not not that bad, but it wasn't a value add. You also took up a valuable posting slot.

Caleb Ralston [00:49:48]:
That's a double loss. What I prefer, and again, this is why I qualify with this is the best case scenario, is you post and you just give, give, give, give, give in your organic, and then you ask in paid. You retarget your viewers, people who have engaged with your organic content where you have been providing them value, a. K. A. Usefulness, and you ask them there. I have found that is the perfect marriage and that is the best case scenario. Now, a lot of us don't have budgets for running paid.

Caleb Ralston [00:50:20]:
Right? And if that's the case, then, yes, you do have to do it. What I recommend you do is you still give immense amounts of value. So my approach to this, because I'm not going to be running paid for the first year probably for Rolston. Right? So what I'm doing is in my content, I'm trying to give an overwhelming amount of value so much so that it's like very clear what people should do, but it's like, wow, for the ones that really want to execute on this, I'm going to need some help. I try to share the knowledge and sell the execution. So I at the very end be like, I'm very not salesy, so I'll just say shit like And if that seems like fucking overwhelming and like a nightmare to execute on and you're like, Jesus, I don't I don't know if I can do this. Well, then that's what my team is here for. We provide guidance.

Caleb Ralston [00:51:08]:
I like soft shit like that personally because I like to let my content do the selling, not me.

Jay Clouse [00:51:15]:
We've talked a lot about, social media, YouTube, kind of these discovery platforms, these platforms that have a discovery mechanism built in. I don't think we've said the word email. Where does email live in your content strategy?

Caleb Ralston [00:51:27]:
Super, super important. It's the it's your direct access to your audience, to your customers. What people don't realize is like you're making a huge ask when saying, Hey, leave this app you're currently on, go to my website, enter your email and that's it. And it sounds so simple but that is a massive request, right? And so what you have to do is make sure that there is massive value in my opinion in return for doing that. This is where people will have playbooks, checklists, SOPs, courses on their site, even for free, just for email opt in. And that is a strategy that I really prefer. I like value and providing a lot of value or as much as I can humanly possible. And so what I would tell people to do is create more extensive, deeper dives that go deeper than maybe your organic does on your site that people can get in exchange for an email.

Caleb Ralston [00:52:23]:
I think a lot of people send a weekly newsletter to check a box and a lot of their audience tunes out because of it. Only send shit if you have true actual value. That's going to be very useful. Like we're going to be building a newsletter this year and I'm not going to send it on a specific cadence. I'm only sending shit if I'm like, Yo, this is going to radically change either your perspective or your operations.

Jay Clouse [00:52:46]:
You mentioned, you know, doing a deeper dive on the website as something that you trade an email for. How do you get people to the website?

Caleb Ralston [00:52:52]:
I will give you what I am going to do, my big strategy for 2025. We just filmed a massive, course on how to build a brand. And rather than gatekeeping that behind a paywall on my site, rather than gatekeeping it behind an email opt in capture thing on my website, I'm gonna drop it completely for free on YouTube. All of it. Final runtime, I have no idea what it'll be because I have the gift of gab, and, my content director Trevor is probably gonna have to do some serious trimming there, but we're gonna drop that completely for free. And people have asked me the few that I've talked to about it. They're like, well, how are you capturing emails then? Well, I am going to be releasing a lot of different playbooks, SOPs, and worksheets throughout the course that you can get for free at my website. And all you need to do is enter your email.

Caleb Ralston [00:53:39]:
And so throughout the content, we will be dropping or releasing little lower thirds that describe what the download is and how they can go get it. And so and I walk through those things in the course. I reference it. My goal is for you to not just watch this. That's entertainment. I want you to take action, which is education. And so we have these worksheets, playbooks, SOPs that you can download so that you take this entertainment and turn it into education and actually take action on it. Right.

Caleb Ralston [00:54:06]:
And so I'm just incentivizing them to go there. I'm aware that I'm not going to get every one of the viewers, but that's okay. I I believe personally that if you provide so much upfront and you don't do kind of the weird, annoying, hacky shit that a lot of people in our space do, I think you stand out and people are more than likely to go because they know that the value is there.

Jay Clouse [00:54:32]:
You just mentioned you are content director, Trevor. You're recently on your out on your own. It sounds like this is a new hire. So you're you're building your own content team right now. Why did you choose a content director? And, also, how did you find somebody that you trusted to do that well?

Caleb Ralston [00:54:50]:
I've worked with Trevor for up to four years now. We've worked on different projects together. I trust him implicitly. I've had the opportunity to train him. I wanna say I got lucky, because I don't think most people watching this are gonna be in that scenario. But what I definitely did not wanna be is the hairdresser with bad hair or the dentist with shitty teeth. Right? Like, I historically you called it before we started rolling. Like, I haven't even done many podcasts.

Caleb Ralston [00:55:16]:
Right. I've made very little content. I've been the guy behind the scenes doing this. Right. And I believe this year is the right year for me to start sharing more of my thoughts publicly and my beliefs and my theories. I wanted Trevor because he is multidisciplinary. Okay? So he is very good at filming. He is his best, where he is most skilled, is short form.

Caleb Ralston [00:55:42]:
But the dude is a fucking sponge. Okay? And he he soaks everything up. He learns so quickly and never makes the same mistake twice. Those are some characteristics for those of you watching, listening that I would recommend you look for is curiosity, no ego. Like, everyone has an ego. So minimal ego, as in they're open to you correcting what they're doing, and they don't take it personally. They understand that you're trying to help them get better. Right? Number three is, well, I said curiosity.

Caleb Ralston [00:56:14]:
I didn't hammer on that. I think, like, no matter what subject matter you're in, you want somebody that's making your content and leading that initiative that actually cares about what you're talking about. They're the one that is gonna ask you the best questions. That course that we filmed. Right? It would have been great if I just sat down and filmed it myself. It was 10 times better because I told Trevor upfront, I said, I want you to think through the frame of a skeptic. Think like a troll. What are all the different ways that people could poke holes in what I'm saying? What are the things that you know that I've shared that I didn't mention that you could bring up? And so something I've always tried to do on set, whether I'm the videographer or when I got to the point where I was hiring videographers is follow-up questions.

Caleb Ralston [00:56:53]:
Like as you're filming content, you should have your team taking note of like follow-up questions, things that the audience is already asking you in the comments. Just like a good video sales letter overcomes objections for the salespeople, like you should be overcoming objections in your content. These are all things that I'm looking for. The reason why he's a content director is because he is not overseeing just one area. He's building out my entire content system. Like, I lean on him. You may resonate with this, Jay. I, I know what I would tell any partner that we partner with to do.

Caleb Ralston [00:57:26]:
But then when I look at myself, I'm like, what the fuck do I do? Trevor, you gotta tell me what you need from me. Right? Do we need to shoot photos? Do we need what what cadence do we want to post the podcast? Like, I'm completely like when it comes to me. You know, I thought about it. And to me, I was like, this is such a worthwhile investment. I know what this is going to provide. Right. And I think also I want to eat my own dog food. If I'm telling people to invest in building out something, I want to also do the same thing and be or lead by example.

Jay Clouse [00:57:58]:
I heard you say before that one of your tenants in the, like, editing and revision process is you leave a lot of comments about things you like versus just saying change these things.

Caleb Ralston [00:58:11]:
Yes.

Jay Clouse [00:58:11]:
And I think that's such a great tip that I definitely don't do as much as I should. Can you speak to why that is important to you when you're giving feedback to your creative teams?

Caleb Ralston [00:58:21]:
First off, editors spend an incredible amount of energy, right? Like they get a big amount on frame.io, for example. They get a hundred revisions. Cool. I'll go and make those. But what they are left wondering for the next video is, well, what did they like that they want me to continue doing? And then they have to spend energy, mental bandwidth determining what am I going to continue doing. Right? I want to eliminate that. I want as much of their energy going to new creative ways to solve problems in the edit. Right? Not thinking about what should I continue doing.

Caleb Ralston [00:58:55]:
So one, I wanna point out shit that I want them to continue doing so that they know I want that. Right? Two, I believe it builds momentum. I prefer, like, whenever I am leaving comments on a video, I'm gonna leave more comments about what I like versus what I don't like, because I also think, I mean, I spent the first thirteen years of my career being an editor. I know what it's like. Like, I want to know that my work was good. Right? Even on my revisions, I actually believe that the majority of them don't need to take place on this current video. So if it doesn't make or break the video or the brand and we're at a seven and this will take it to an eight, if we're talking short form, especially, I'll tell them, here's a note. Don't worry about it on this video.

Caleb Ralston [00:59:39]:
Do it on the next one. I like the momentum. I don't wanna get bogged down because ultimately, the majority of those notes, majority, because if they're not brand or video detrimental, they're just a subjective call I make you. Maybe I want the font to be a little bit bigger or I want it to be this color or whatever. That's a subjective call. I don't want to fucking debate that. Let's let the audience determine. Now on long form videos, I do put a little bit more emphasis on on getting out there mainly because typically in long form, you're putting out less volume, so you have slower feedback cycles.

Caleb Ralston [01:00:10]:
The feedback loop is not as quick as short form. So with short form, it's like, let let's do it. And then here's the reality. Thirty seconds after your audience watched the video, they've already forgotten about it. So if you re edit it with those notes in mind next week and post it, nobody knows. And so, like, that that's typically why I like to do that. I just think that this fast tracks editors so much more, and and it allows them to feel empowered to spend their energy on innovation rather than duplication.

Jay Clouse [01:00:39]:
Yeah. I think it feels much more like a collaboration or a partnership too. It's it's not like, hey, here's this thing that I expect you to do. We're doing it together, and I am empowering you to make greater decisions, and I want to recognize and say that I like that. Or maybe this didn't come over across the way it should, but calling out stuff that you like specifically, I think is such a great note when you're working with a creative team.

Caleb Ralston [01:01:02]:
I also think that, like, so many of us override our editors on a on a creative call. And I think that does a lot of bad things. But the biggest one is that it changes the way that the editor thinks and starts to not allow them to have ownership and agency. And all of a sudden, they're just looking to you to solve all their problems, but that's not why they you hired them. You didn't hire them for you to do their job. Right? When it came to something that we were debating on a video, I almost always default to what the editor wants to do. Again, unless it's brand detrimental, I will share my opinion. I will tell them, no.

Caleb Ralston [01:01:44]:
I don't think this is the right hook. I think this section is. But if you like that hook, let's do it. Let's run it and see who's right. Or the best case scenario, now that we have trial reels, is let's do both versions and run it and let you see whether your call was right or mine was. And as a side note, as the leader and for all the people that lead a team out here, this is a big kicker. When you're wrong, be the first to admit it. Don't let them go around talking to each other about how, oh, Caleb made the wrong call.

Caleb Ralston [01:02:12]:
I I would immediately hop into Slack and be like, look at who's the biggest doofus here today. I I told you that this was right. Like, I'm the big shot, but I was totally wrong.

Jay Clouse [01:02:22]:
I've heard you say, at least when you're working with the Hormozys, that you guys didn't look at the content other people created as part of your preproduction. Is that true?

Caleb Ralston [01:02:30]:
I wanna qualify it by saying, yes, of course, we did, but not within our lane. So I don't really like to consume like with them, for example, I was not consuming business creator content. I like to look at other niches right? A big one that I like to observe and see trends on and look at packaging formats is, any creators on the video game space. I think they do an incredible job of coming up with new packaging formats on YouTube as an example. Right? I like to look at other industries and borrow formats from them. The problem with what majority of people are doing is they look at the top dog in their space and they just duplicate everything. And guess what you will always be? Number two, tops. And so I think the reason why over the last three years, we were the pioneers and everyone was copying us.

Caleb Ralston [01:03:25]:
It's cause we weren't looking at anybody in our fishbowl. I would encourage you consume outside of this world. Right? And if you're gonna consume business content, consume old, right, like books where you're learning so that you can ask better questions or understand business concepts better. But we don't wanna be watching all the other business creators on YouTube because then you just look like that. And that's why a lot of the space currently looks the same right now. And the only ones who are actually driving innovation, in my opinion, are the ones that ignore everything in their space, and they're looking elsewhere.

Jay Clouse [01:03:59]:
Let's say that of these four types of content you mentioned of audio, video, text, graphics, let's say I'm equally interested and well served to any of them. Do you think there are unique opportunities for any particular platform right now, or is that just not the way to think about it?

Caleb Ralston [01:04:18]:
I love this question. And I don't normally like to go into tactics because I think that that's more fishing for people rather than teaching them how to fish. But I will just jump in for a second here. I think LinkedIn is like the platform I'm most interested in right now. Whether you are a b to b or not, I do not give a shit. People are now at the point where they're uploading the photo of them in the family in the minivan going on a road trip. Like, it is not just like your digital resume anymore. Right? It is a true social media platform.

Caleb Ralston [01:04:45]:
It's like Facebook was in 2014. Gary has been saying this for years, and Gary tends to be very early on these things, But it is it is there right now. There is not another platform that has more true organic reach than LinkedIn. Like, Jay, when I comment on your post, all of my connections see that. That's fucking absurd. There's not another platform that's operating that way. So I think the current you know, as of February 20, 11:53AM Pacific time twenty twenty five, that is where I see the most opportunity.

Jay Clouse [01:05:14]:
And it sounds like you're saying that from just a pure supply and demand of content and attention rather than saying, like, I'm interested specifically in video on LinkedIn right now.

Caleb Ralston [01:05:23]:
Well, I mean, they did release the video tab about six months ago, seven months ago now. And for the first three months, it was dog shit. It didn't do anything. And for the last four months, I've been noticing every month it's increasing in value. So I do think that, like, video tab is very crucial. And so I do think that there's an opportunity there. I would say it's not the medium that is the opportunity on LinkedIn. I think it's showing up as a fucking human.

Caleb Ralston [01:05:45]:
99 of people are posting or using chat gbt prompts to make their content, and they all sound like robots and exactly the same. And they think that because it's LinkedIn and it has this business thing, they need to show up as a business person and stuffy. And it's like, if you show up with your actual personality, goddamn, you will stand the fuck out.

Jay Clouse [01:06:02]:
We haven't really talked about audio. Where does audio live in your content strategy?

Caleb Ralston [01:06:06]:
I think podcasting is huge and traditionally has been kind of an afterthought for a lot of creators, especially in the business space. It's kind of like a catchall. It's repurposed from other content. I think there is so much value in podcasting right now. I think from an advertising standpoint, I think the industry average right now is you put a dollar in, you get four out.

Jay Clouse [01:06:26]:
Crazy.

Caleb Ralston [01:06:26]:
It's fucking absurd. Right? I think podcasting is incredibly powerful. One thing I would encourage people to think about, this is not a rule. This is not me telling you what to do. Just a thought is, potentially considering having your show have guests on it, and maybe you have a moderator. Mhmm. Maybe you have a moderator that presents things and allows for discussion, almost like a fireside chat. And and the reason why I say that is not everybody is established like you, Jay.

Caleb Ralston [01:06:57]:
Like, you've built an incredible audience. You have a really strong brand in this space, but I think that that is a format that is harder to stand out in. And so I would encourage people to start to explore. I think there's been very little innovation in the podcast space, actually, and I think there's about to be a lot more. I think Spotify is really changing the game right now. Traditional podcasters hate Spotify right now. Right? They're just doing everything different. Like, they're releasing video.

Caleb Ralston [01:07:23]:
They're gonna be rolling out different forms of, like, short form content that are in the feed. They're beginning to have a more discoverable platform rather than just one where you have to go search it out. And so I think podcasting, you know, it's probably one of the oldest mediums actually that we've talked about, but I think it's one of the highest value still.

Jay Clouse [01:07:42]:
60% of the people who join my membership, which is my core offer, credit the podcast in their application. So it's it's a huge needle mover in terms of the trust you were talking about. What about collaborations? People like Gary and Alex, they show up on a lot of other people's podcasts. Is that specifically part of a content strategy, or is that just kind of opportunistic? We'll take that when it makes sense.

Caleb Ralston [01:08:04]:
Yes. It absolutely is part of the strategy, and it's super, smart to do that. There's a lot of people out there that have this belief, like, I could take the time that I deploy to going on other people's podcast and just make more of my own content. But the reality is is you're making the assumption that the algorithm is going to push that content into a completely new audience when I could just have the wonderful opportunity to talk to Jay and have Jay's audience now see my shit, right, and hear my thoughts. So I think it's really important on that standpoint. One thing I think a lot of people are not careful about, know, I wanna be careful in how I say this so that it's respectful to everyone out there, but I try to be very careful about what shows I go on. And the reason why is I think that back to our definition of branding and brand, if you are showing up on a lot of questionable individuals podcasts, or let's just go there in the business space, there's a lot of scam artists, in my opinion, and a lot of them have podcasts. They're selling bullshit that is not valuable.

Caleb Ralston [01:09:08]:
If I start to appear on a lot of those podcasts, all of a sudden the audience, because I am intentionally pairing myself with something relevant consistently, the audience will begin to inherently associate me with those individuals. So I would urge people that are either fur like, very far along in their journey or are just starting out. If you're far along, start getting more intentional about who you're choosing. And if you're in the beginning, lucky you, you get to start from the get go thinking this way. And what this means is, like, doing an audit. Jay, when when you reach out, when we first started talking, the first thing I did is look at your YouTube channel and look at, like, who are the guests that you're having on. And I was like, oh, I would love to be paired with these individuals. You have some very cool guests.

Caleb Ralston [01:09:56]:
I also listened to one of your episodes, and I was like, damn. Jay doesn't ask bullshit questions. He asked really thoughtful, very good like, really good, dude. Like, incredibly good.

Jay Clouse [01:10:06]:
Thank you.

Caleb Ralston [01:10:07]:
And I was like, this, I would love to be paired with Jay. That would be a great thing for my audience to associate me with. So I would really encourage people do it, but be intentional with whose shows you go on.