#197: How to build raving fans and real connection (feat. Chenell Basilio and Becky Davidson)

Jay Clouse [00:00:14]:
Hello, my friend. Welcome back to another episode of Creator Science. Last week, I was in Boise, Idaho speaking at ConvertKit's annual craft and commerce event. It's one of my favorite events of the year and this year may have been my favorite event ever. ConvertKit revealed that they are rebranding to Kit and a whole slew of other product updates as well, including opening an in person recording studio available to all ConvertKit customers, which is where today's recording took place. Today, I'm talking with 2 members of the lab who have become great friends. The first is Chanel Basilio, the writer of Growth in Reverse and guest on episode number 147, which is the most popular episode of the show, at least on Spotify. Growth in Reverse is a newsletter reverse engineering the email growth strategies of today's top creators.

Jay Clouse [00:01:04]:
It's a fantastic newsletter. Chanel has grown that subscriber base incredibly quickly because people absolutely love the deep research she does. My second guest is Becky Davidson. Becky has a background in both product and community design and now runs her own community agency called Affinity Collective. Before striking out on her own, Becky was the head of product at Boss Babe. These 2 women know a lot about serving audiences in a way that makes them genuinely love the work that you do, and that's what I wanted to explore in this episode. If you wanna serve your audience in a way that is unique and memorable and remarkable, which I really think you should, then this episode is for you. Now before I forget, I have linked both of their work in the show notes.

Jay Clouse [00:01:48]:
So if you want to learn more about them, go back and give that a look. We've been putting a lot more effort and time into our show notes lately, by the way. So if you wanna learn more about their work and follow them after the show, that's where you can find it. You can also find a link to apply to join the lab. At Craft and Commerce, we had dinner with more than 20 members of the lab. We are gearing up to do an in person event next year. I am publicly committing to it. It's just fantastic.

Jay Clouse [00:02:12]:
It's an incredible community of people and if you are a full time professional creator, it's something that you're gonna want to consider. So the link to join the lab or apply to join the lab I should say is in the show notes and we'll get to this conversation with Becky and Chanel right after this. So this is what I wanna talk about because as I as I shared, you have such a strong community behind your brand and your content, and you have a background in product and in community, and you understand acutely the benefits that come with having community driven products, people who love your brand. And I feel like that's not the default mode of creators right now. It's like I feel like we've reached peak optimization Mhmm. From a business sense and not from a people sense. Discuss.

Chenell Basilio [00:03:04]:
I'd agree with you a 100%. And I think accidentally, like, I just fell into creating these super deep articles that most people won't write. And so I think that's helped me build that raving fan base while there are people out there just looking for, like, growth for growth's sake, which is a challenge and not the way to grow anything, I think. So, yeah, it's just about quality at this point, and I think that really makes you stand out.

Jay Clouse [00:03:27]:
Say Say more about that, though. What do you mean by this is not what most people would do? What do you think most people would do, and how is this different?

Becky Davidson [00:03:33]:
I think

Chenell Basilio [00:03:33]:
a lot of people see the these, like, big numbers and these huge success stories of, you know, a Lenny Rachitsky or something, saw he'll bloom. And they're like, I wanna make a $1,000,000. How do I do it as fast as possible? I think that I think that's the complete wrong approach. And so they they look for all the growth hacks and that kind of thing, but they forget that, like, the foundational pieces of, like, building relationships along the way to help you out and do that.

Jay Clouse [00:03:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. Hot take. I think it's easier than ever to have big numbers and have that mean absolutely nothing. Correct.

Chenell Basilio [00:04:04]:
Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:04:04]:
What do you think? I think you're just, like, hauling back. You're, like, hold me back. I'm about to rage on this and permission to rage.

Becky Davidson [00:04:13]:
So spicy about this. Go. People just do it backwards. They're like, let me get lots of attention, which is the word you always use, and then they're like, okay. Let me use a worksheet to create an offer. Actually, they do that first. Like, they're like, let me create an offer, or I'm going to, just launch a course that does this thing because I've done it before. Instead of fostering community and building one to one connection with people, really understanding their problems, and then developing something that solves that problem.

Becky Davidson [00:04:44]:
It sounds really simple, but people just don't approach it that way.

Jay Clouse [00:04:48]:
Yeah. I feel like part of the problem is we people are, like, bought in on the lifestyle of what it means to be a creator, and then they pick one of their favorites. And everybody kinda starts with imitation, And then you have to do your own thing. But, man, the thing I keep thinking about were you guys at Cody Sanchez's talk today? Yeah.

Chenell Basilio [00:05:12]:
So good. Yeah. It's so so good.

Jay Clouse [00:05:13]:
Super good. Also, super validating to, like, everything I think and do. But I saw her at dinner last night. I went up to her and I said, I want you to know that I think the content you put out is some of the most innovative stuff I see in short form. And, also, I am so impressed with the media machine you have built. And, she was like, thank you. All of that is the team. And then I asked her, tell me about the input you have into content creation right now.

Jay Clouse [00:05:37]:
It became clear very quickly. Yes. She's, like, definitely involved, but I think all 3 of us probably put more time into fingers on keys, editing, writing, whatever, making content than Cody does. And then at our talk today, she says she spent $2,900,000 on content this year or in June. Right. So it's just so clear to me that this the strategy of I have a favorite creator. I can see that if it is Cody Sanchez or somebody, she's making TikTok. She's making reels.

Jay Clouse [00:06:07]:
She's on long form YouTube. She's writing newsletters. She's and you try to hold yourself to that same standard, and you're not playing the same sport.

Chenell Basilio [00:06:16]:
Right. Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:06:17]:
And so, like, the imitation style of pick your favorite creator who's big, who has resources you don't have, and try to model after them doesn't work. You have to start with customers.

Becky Davidson [00:06:26]:
Yeah. I see this all the time with communities because people come to me because I used to work at Boss Bape, and they'll show me their membership, and they'll say, like, hey. It's not working for me. People are canceling. I can't get people in the door. Nobody's engaging. Help. And then I look at it, and it's, like, the exact same thing that Boss Babe offers, like, the same line by line offer.

Becky Davidson [00:06:48]:
You're gonna get a weekly call, a monthly goal setting, and it's gonna be this amount of money, the exact model that they have. It's like, yeah, because you're completely imitating and not creating something for your people, and it's not what they need.

Jay Clouse [00:07:02]:
Yeah. And it's so pleasing when people do things uniquely. Like, I think that's why your newsletter took off so quickly because it was so clear what you were doing, and it was not the same as anything directly. Yeah. I think that's really I mean, you did a great talk yesterday about the secret to growth being a lot about relationships. I agree with that. I also think from a content perspective, the more differentiated you are in a way that people actually care about, it's so underrated. It's it's so key to fast growth, in my opinion.

Chenell Basilio [00:07:35]:
Yeah. I agree with that. And I think, going back to what you were saying, a lot of people are building communities and just, like, throwing a bunch of content in there and just hoping it works. Because it's like, wait, I did this one thing. Let me just throw that in there. And I really liked what Bonnie said the other day where she was like, let's just get just get back to, like, the simplicity of it. Let's build a community and just, like, have it be about other people connecting with with each other and, like, a very, very simple offer that your community actually wants and has said that they want, not that you're guessing.

Becky Davidson [00:08:03]:
Yeah. We're overwhelming people with all the content and all the things. Like and that's the other thing with offers where it's like, here's your laundry list of a 100 items. And by the way, the value is a $150,000, but you're gonna get it for a 1,000. Right? So the spice is coming. Yes.

Chenell Basilio [00:08:18]:
I actually thought about this when I was thinking of what to put in, like, the community community that I want to build. Scoop.

Jay Clouse [00:08:23]:
I

Chenell Basilio [00:08:23]:
was like, I can yeah. Coming soon. I can, like, add more of these growth levers and, like, do all this other stuff. And I was like, wait. People already tell me, like, when I come to these conferences, people come up and they're like, I love your newsletter, but I honestly read it once a month in batches. I just read it all at once. And

Jay Clouse [00:08:40]:
I'm like, got it.

Chenell Basilio [00:08:41]:
That's interesting. Yeah. That's interesting behavior. Too much to do

Jay Clouse [00:08:43]:
every week. Nobody wants more

Chenell Basilio [00:08:44]:
stuff. Right.

Jay Clouse [00:08:45]:
This is I mean, I definitely messed this up with the lab. I was like, stuff. And now now I still have too much stuff. But when you start with so much stuff, to counteract that, you have to say, hey, I know you're paying me for all the stuff but I'm actually gonna take that away now and you're gonna pay the same thing. That's a hard dynamic to get into. It's like, let's start smaller with the essentials that people actually need. I was gonna bring this up. I was thinking to myself, does Chanel wanna talk about the fact that she wants to build a membership? So you volunteered us and I'm gonna talk about it.

Jay Clouse [00:09:18]:
Okay. We've been talking about it for a couple months. Yeah. And that's not me throwing shade. That's me saying, I suspect you're being very thoughtful about this and that you're thinking about the design and how it'll be uniquely you and in service to your people. Tell me about that.

Chenell Basilio [00:09:34]:
Yeah. And, I mean, it all really started the middle of last year. I was like, I'm gonna launch a course just because I thought that was the next right thing to do. Everyone was doing it, so I built this wait list up of, like, 900 people. And I was like, cool. Let's do that. And I started recording these videos, and I was like, it's not as good as I want it to be. And so I just hit this wall, and I just stopped.

Chenell Basilio [00:09:52]:
And I completely stopped creating the course. And I was like, you know what? I think that's the wrong approach. I think the content and the things that people are looking to do is more iterative, and it's not like, here's a static course, and you just kinda go through it, and good luck. You know? And so I really wanted to be intentional about, like, how this comes out into the world and not just, like, throw it out there because I think people will buy it.

Jay Clouse [00:10:14]:
This is the stuff. You have a wait list of 900 people who said, I wanna buy a thing from you. And you said, I'm not gonna ship it.

Becky Davidson [00:10:20]:
Yeah. Yep. She cares.

Jay Clouse [00:10:23]:
Isn't that great?

Becky Davidson [00:10:24]:
That's amazing.

Jay Clouse [00:10:26]:
So one, it's like so special and unique right now. And I feel like the bar is lower than ever to show that you actually care post purchase.

Becky Davidson [00:10:35]:
Mhmm. Oh, my god.

Jay Clouse [00:10:37]:
Bring the spice.

Becky Davidson [00:10:40]:
Like, people buy stuff, and then where's their welcome email? Where's the onboarding? Where's, like, the check-in 30 days in? Of out of all the audits I do, nobody checks in and says, like, hey. How's it going? How's your program, your experience, whatever you're creating? Like, they just don't check-in and say, how's it going? Like, how can I support you more? What are you missing? What challenge are you facing? Like, they're just not checking in with people, and and that it's not just about the marketing side. It's about the long journey that they go on after that first purchase.

Chenell Basilio [00:11:11]:
And nobody thinks about the impact of that. Like, if you

Becky Davidson [00:11:14]:
Leaving a lot of money on the table.

Chenell Basilio [00:11:16]:
Well, yeah. Not just that though. Like, if you burn that bridge that early on, they're never gonna buy from you again. They're not gonna talk about you. And they're just like, I don't like this person anymore because they promised me one thing and I got this other thing, and I'm I'm out.

Becky Davidson [00:11:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And something you said earlier about your, the iterative process, that's why it's perfect what that you stopped that because that's perfect for, like, a community of practice, which is when people come together to just practice the thing that they're working toward and learn together, and it's not a linear journey. It's, like, very much you're in a loop all the time.

Jay Clouse [00:11:52]:
I like the idea of a community of practice. I haven't I haven't heard that phrase before.

Becky Davidson [00:11:56]:
I did not invent it. I think maybe I heard it from Mersey Sherry, but I'm not sure. Somewhere in my journey of reading everything on the Internet, I can find about community. I read that.

Jay Clouse [00:12:06]:
I like that. Just a quick break for our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. And now, back to the show. So your point being, if you don't care post purchase, people have bad experience. Your point being, then they churn. This churn is something maybe we can spend a little bit of time talking about this. Something that's very unique about a membership product, which everyone's like, memberships, recurring revenue, amazing. And they think about that from the selfish lens of, I would love to have recurring revenue that I can count on every month.

Jay Clouse [00:12:39]:
Yeah. But to earn recurring revenue, you have to provide recurring value, in my opinion. But here's the crazy thing about recurring revenue as it comes to a membership. The people who are most likely to buy a membership, probably your biggest fans. And it's unlikely that you maintain any subscription forever. So something that I think about I wonder if you've thought about this at all. When you build a membership, you are inherently creating an experience where your biggest fans will eventually come to the conclusion that I don't want to purchase this anymore, which is a weird experience to, like, end a relationship on that was one of your strongest relationships.

Becky Davidson [00:13:18]:
Yeah. I

Jay Clouse [00:13:19]:
don't know how to think about that or reconcile it.

Becky Davidson [00:13:22]:
I think about Ascension strategy a lot when it comes to membership model. So, like, let's look at yours, for example. You have your VIP tier where you can get additional calls with you. So you're thinking about your tier strategy as extra support, which a lot of people do this and that can work really well. But it can also be that you're taking them on a journey. So maybe they only get the things that they need in tier 1, and then they kind of move up and graduate themselves and pay more because they're ready to as they have success and they're starting to reach their goals. So, yeah, eventually, maybe they're at that top tier, but then they might go on to, like, a one to one experience or come to your retreats or something like that.

Jay Clouse [00:14:00]:
A lot of one to one experiences, though, are sold as not recurring. You know, it's, like, it's time bound. So, like, you move to that and there is a goal line, and you can, like, celebrate. And everyone's, like, we did it. We did everything we wanted and your last experience with that brand or that creator, that thing that you loved was positive. Whereas, when you cancel a subscription, there is like an inherently negative feeling of I've decided this wasn't worth it to me anymore, which as somebody who wants to build relationships with my audience, that feels so weird. I don't know how to reconcile it. Because if you just create every experience to have an endpoint, then the promise of recurring revenue goes out the window.

Jay Clouse [00:14:43]:
In some in some experiences, it doesn't make sense to have an endpoint. Like, if you are this is what I think about the lab is I want this to be a place for knowledge share of everyone's experimenting about what's working right now and instead of you having to run 10 experiments, you can run 2 and, you know, 4 other people can run 2. And now we have data from 10 experiments. And that is always relevant. So it makes sense to have an ongoing thing. But still people's priorities change, business needs change, and people will self select out as they do every month to some degree. It's just so weird to me to, like, opt into a product experience where you're going to end it with your biggest fans at some point saying, this is no longer for me. It's really hard

Chenell Basilio [00:15:27]:
for me. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe they've graduated past that point, and they're looking for something more. So if if anything, I think that's a testament to being able to get what they needed from you at that point in time and then move on to something else. And maybe you have a larger membership or a more expensive one later down the road, but I don't know. Part of me is, like, it's kinda cool that you, like, had that impact on their journey for that period

Jay Clouse [00:15:49]:
of time.

Chenell Basilio [00:15:49]:
Like, you can't expect to, like, have these people until they're, like, 80 years old. But

Jay Clouse [00:15:54]:
Yeah. I know. And I'm such a sensitive boy. It's I I try I I really have to, like, not take things personally.

Becky Davidson [00:16:01]:
We love that about

Chenell Basilio [00:16:02]:
you. Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:16:03]:
It's so hard, though. It's so hard, because then it's awkward. It's like, you wanna know, like, what could I have done better and are we still cool? So, like, I do try to get out, like, I think about off boarding a lot. You know, when Yeah. When people leave the community, they actually get an email that says, like, just wanna let you know we're still cool. Like, I'm still in your corner. I'm still rooting for you and actually I have a dynamic footer in my emails. Maybe you guys have noticed.

Jay Clouse [00:16:27]:
Like, if you're a member of the community, you actually have a different footer than everybody else. And even if you join the community and left, you still have a different footer from everybody else. And it says, like, we miss you, and I would love to hear an update from you anytime. Just hit reply. So I think off that. Offboarding is powerful, but it's mostly to, like, make me not feel sad.

Becky Davidson [00:16:49]:
Okay. But I have a qualifying question when somebody tells me that they wanna start a membership, and I say, what transformation are you serving? How are you supporting these people? And then how long on average will it take them to accomplish that? If it's more than a year, then I'm, like, great fit for a membership. And if it's less than a year, I'm, like, create a program.

Jay Clouse [00:17:05]:
Yeah.

Becky Davidson [00:17:06]:
So if people are leaving after being in there multiple years when the average retention rate drops after 3 months, I would say you're doing a really good job.

Jay Clouse [00:17:13]:
Yeah. Okay. Ego is solved. Now tell me about, some of the audits you've done where people are doing unique, really positive things to, like, support student experiences. And maybe it's not an audit of clients. Maybe it's just, like, things you've seen other people do that you're like, that's really smart. That's really unique. That's really good.

Becky Davidson [00:17:31]:
Yeah. There's actually one client I'm working with right now that they have a like, one of their main core offers is a monthly coaching call, and they don't care how long that call will go. They will stay on till every question is answered. And I've seen this in the people that care the most about taking care of their members, and they will just it's not about, like, oh, you're paying for 1 hour of my time a month. Like, it's like, I'm gonna show up and serve you. And so they'll stay on for, like, 3, 4 hours. Wow. Yeah.

Becky Davidson [00:18:05]:
They'd like the day of the month that they do that coaching, they block that day.

Jay Clouse [00:18:10]:
This is kind of a hack. This is something I have learned though. If you are offering 1 on 1 time with you, it's always a good move to block on your calendar more time than is there. Because, 1, you're always like, oh, I have time to myself. But, also, I think a life well lived is one where you're not hurrying away from something to the next thing. So in that experience, everyone's gonna notice like, wow, we're getting bonus time, and everyone's gonna feel good. People also notice why it's like, sorry, guys. I gotta jump to another call.

Jay Clouse [00:18:41]:
It's not a great experience. I love that.

Becky Davidson [00:18:43]:
Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:18:43]:
3 to 4 hours seems like a lot, though. They're blocking a lot of time. Probably means that they've created a life where they have lots of space. They can do that, and It probably comes from treating their people well.

Becky Davidson [00:18:52]:
Yeah. And they have a team, to be fair. Like, they have a team, and, her main role is, like, being the coach. So she's got, like, a CEO and all of these other roles that really support the business. So that, you know, impacts.

Chenell Basilio [00:19:06]:
I love that though because it almost makes it feel less of, like I think if you have that that squished an hour where it's just like, I only have 60 minutes, you start to resent that time as well. And so then you're just, like, trying to rush through and make sure, like, you know, you're done in 60 minutes. Whereas, if you give yourself that time, it's like, no. This is an event. I'm ready to show up. I'm ready to be here. I like that a lot.

Jay Clouse [00:19:29]:
Yeah. Literally blocking 30 minutes and then well, to the end user blocking 30 minutes then personally blocking 60 minutes is underpromising, overdelivering in calendar form.

Chenell Basilio [00:19:43]:
I love that.

Jay Clouse [00:19:44]:
You know? It's really powerful. Tell me more about do you wanna talk about the membership a little bit more? I wanna hear I wanna hear your design constraints is what I wanna hear. If you're if you're thinking about this very intentionally, I wanna hear what what puzzle you're trying to solve in the design of it.

Chenell Basilio [00:19:59]:
So right now, I'm trying to intentionally not be too focused and, like, structured of what I'm gonna offer. I wanna do, like, kind of what you did and have, you know, 30, 50, maybe a 100 people in there at the beginning and not, like, launch it to the list right away. And just kind of figure out what they need, make sure it's actually working. But I wanna start off, like, I do newsletter audits. And with every audit, there are, like, 3 to 5 things that everyone does wrong. Not wrong, but, like, they could improve upon. And I wanna start almost create, like, a interactive checklist of sorts and have that be, like, the first sprint or something that we all do together. And then from there, launch into adding more programming or whatever that looks like based on what everyone needs at that point.

Jay Clouse [00:20:41]:
You wanna do an audit of 50 to a 100 people individually? No. Okay.

Chenell Basilio [00:20:46]:
I want so there are, like, there are commonalities within each one. So I wanna create, like, a checklist of those, like, 5

Jay Clouse [00:20:54]:
I see.

Chenell Basilio [00:20:54]:
Things or so. And we all do it at the same time.

Jay Clouse [00:20:56]:
Of the audits you have done, you have found patterns. Correct. You want to present that so people can self identify and you can support them as they're going

Chenell Basilio [00:21:04]:
through that. Right. And so

Jay Clouse [00:21:05]:
we almost all do it

Chenell Basilio [00:21:05]:
together as like a cohort of sorts. But, and then from there, launch into, like, what's what's next?

Jay Clouse [00:21:10]:
Trying to figure that out. Here's an unrelated question. Since you've been how long have you been writing the newsletter now?

Chenell Basilio [00:21:18]:
Since December of 22. So, like, year and a half.

Jay Clouse [00:21:21]:
Okay. Over the last year and a half, are you more or less bullish on newsletters generally?

Chenell Basilio [00:21:27]:
I am more bullish. However, I think it's not as this is this is a good question. I think that it's just as important, but the the growth hacks that I was looking at in the beginning are not as important as I thought they would be. Like, I think the content is, like, hands down the most important thing. If you don't spend time making it good, unique, all that stuff, like, that's it's kind of like the product. Right? But then the relationships, like, I was talking about. And then I think the growth hacks just lever onto that. Mhmm.

Chenell Basilio [00:22:01]:
I hate calling them growth hacks, but everyone knows what that means. So I'll go with that. But no. I think a newsletter and having an email list is probably the most valuable thing you can do at this point. It's just a matter of making sure those people are quality, and you're not just, like, growing for growth's sake.

Jay Clouse [00:22:16]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio [00:22:17]:
I go back

Jay Clouse [00:22:18]:
and forth between a newsletter and a podcast with the caveat that a podcast is way harder to achieve. Like, I think I think if you have a top podcast that is driving real listens, it's the most valuable property you can build. Mhmm. I just think it's way harder than having a similar experience in email.

Chenell Basilio [00:22:37]:
Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:22:39]:
Here's another question for you. Since, like, fully diving into creator science as a brand Mhmm. I found myself writing more from a brand voice than my personal voice more times than not. And when I have done the inverse and I've written more from my personal voice again, it's like a 5 to 10 x higher reply rate. And my thought was, I could actually build more resilience in the business by not making it about me. And there's probably some limits to this. Like, people aren't gonna wanna read my diary every week. That's not why most people are here probably.

Chenell Basilio [00:23:21]:
Right.

Jay Clouse [00:23:21]:
But I'm curious to hear from the amount of newsletters you you've looked at. How often does it seem like disembodied brand voice and maybe a little personality versus, like, people associate this newsletter with an individual?

Chenell Basilio [00:23:34]:
Like, what's the ratio you use?

Jay Clouse [00:23:36]:
What do you find I kinda wanna leave it just open ended. Do you find that more people who are at the higher echelon of subscribers and newsletter is driving the business, are they more personality driven, or are they more brand voice?

Chenell Basilio [00:23:52]:
I think there's a mixture. I think for a creator of any sorts, it would be much more valuable to have it be more of, like, a personal thing. And, like, we were just talking about Becky's most what was the most replied issue?

Becky Davidson [00:24:05]:
Yeah. So this past week, I sent, like, a a special edition issue, I called it. So it was 1 year, my 1 year in business reflection, and I got 10 x replies.

Chenell Basilio [00:24:17]:
And I see that all the time with, like, the ones that I study. Like, when people put personality in the front, like, at the beginning of the newsletter, it's just so much more. Like, you get more replies, people share it more, and they feel connected to you as a person and a brand. And I think that really builds those raving fans.

Jay Clouse [00:24:33]:
Did you have a call to action to reply?

Becky Davidson [00:24:35]:
I did not. It was super personal. I might have just lied to you. I might have said at the end, like, reply and let me know what's going on in your world, but I always have something like that.

Jay Clouse [00:24:44]:
It wasn't a different, like, more overt call to action or

Becky Davidson [00:24:48]:
call. But but I was very vulnerable. I shared my numbers. I shared everything I messed up. Like, I just I just really put it out there. That's awesome. People loved it. And by the way, I think we got scared about what vulnerability causes for us in the back end.

Becky Davidson [00:25:08]:
Like, do people end up buying? But I had 2 2 of the replies were like, hey. How do I work with you? So it's and I usually get one of those every few issues. So to get 2 in that one issue, and it was about my personal life, how much money I made, which was, like, I don't know, not that impressive. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Jay Clouse [00:25:27]:
Yeah. Thinking about the issue that I sent that was much more personal, I don't think I even had a call to action to reply. And to have, like, a huge higher number of replies even compared to other issues where I did say to reply, it definitely says something. So I'm I'm constantly dealing with this tension though of, like, I don't wanna center myself. But, also, when I do share more as Jay versus as the writer of Creator Science, the response is good. I just I don't know what the limit what the threshold is to where it goes too far. I Actually, I think about the conversation or the the talk that Logan Urie did last year at Craft and Commerce. Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:26:08]:
You remember that? Mhmm. She was, Logan Urie is like a dating expert. She was like a she works at Hinge or worked at Hinge, and she's done I think she has, like, a PhD, and she wrote a book called Don't Die Alone, which has, like, the best cover art of a book I've ever seen. It's incredible. Anyway, Logan was talking about their newsletter strategy, and it was always, written as like, hey, we're responding to reader replies right now. And then they would encourage readers to reply and then that would start the cycle of the next one. I'm actually thinking about this as a format when I go on paternity leave is to more specifically solicit, audience issues that are specific, but I actually probably anonymize and make applicable to other people as a way to, like, continue to have high quality content that's relevant but reduce the ideation time that I need in the process. Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:27:10]:
I know I was not supposed to ask you, like, growth questions. So one thing I will ask you is how do you see other writers and this is open to both of you for sure. How do you see other writers solicit more audience involvement in their work?

Chenell Basilio [00:27:26]:
Yeah. I mean, asking questions, like, getting q and a's. I think people love those interviews or those, episodes that you do, like, a lot. I know I do. It's way more fun to hear that sometimes. But, yeah, I mean, just adding personality into the newsletter or your content, doing something different. Like, I recorded a Loom video recently for one of my newsletters, and I was like, that's cool. And then people, like, commented on it, reply, and they were like, this is awesome.

Chenell Basilio [00:27:53]:
It was like a minute long, but it was just like me walking through something cool I found.

Jay Clouse [00:27:56]:
I like that.

Chenell Basilio [00:27:56]:
Yeah. So it's just like shaking it up every now and then, I think, really gets people's attention.

Jay Clouse [00:28:01]:
Maybe that's the key. Maybe it is just like about the pattern interrupt.

Becky Davidson [00:28:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. That was a pattern interrupt, my issue that did well. So that was definitely part of it, I think.

Jay Clouse [00:28:14]:
I'm gonna think about this, but I think that's my that's my working theory is everything is good when it's a little bit of a pattern interrupt and taken in moderation. And so if you have a few different formats or variations that you know perform in terms of, like, hitting people. Yeah. You know, you can't then just do that every time.

Chenell Basilio [00:28:35]:
Right.

Jay Clouse [00:28:36]:
But there's probably a few ways you can do that, and you can kinda mix it up. And

Chenell Basilio [00:28:39]:
And we talked about this with the referral program in the newsletter. Remember you were like, just remove it, or maybe I should move it up or down or something.

Jay Clouse [00:28:45]:
Yeah.

Chenell Basilio [00:28:46]:
And I removed it from mine for a couple of weeks. And then somebody was like, wait. Where's the link?

Jay Clouse [00:28:52]:
Interesting.

Chenell Basilio [00:28:52]:
So they do miss it.

Jay Clouse [00:28:53]:
But Let let me expand on this. So, the if you subscribe to Growth in Reverse, you can see at the bottom of Chanel's emails her typical, like, block about the referral program. It's like, here's how many referrals you have. Here's the reward that's coming up. Here's how many you need. Here's the button to your referral hub. And that became, like, kind of common and still is kinda common in some newsletters to have that general, like, UI component to the email. And what we had talked about is I think oftentimes when that's at the bottom of an email, it starts to just kind of blend into the footer.

Jay Clouse [00:29:26]:
And people, over time, if the footer does not change, they ignore the footer. So any UI element that remains consistent starts to just be ignored. This is the pattern interrupt thing. We need to be we like to be surprised in small ways Mhmm. Because then it gets us to pay attention to stuff. Right. So, yeah, what are you thinking about the referral program right now?

Chenell Basilio [00:29:46]:
What am I thinking about it?

Becky Davidson [00:29:47]:
Yeah. Just gonna

Chenell Basilio [00:29:48]:
keep going with it. Seems to More bullish

Jay Clouse [00:29:51]:
or less bullish on referral programs?

Chenell Basilio [00:29:52]:
Oh, I see. I mean, I think just from being a service provider in the past, like, referrals are your strongest leads. And so I think that it might not be as strong strong with newsletters, but I still think there's something there in in terms of, like, if Becky goes out and shares my newsletter with her people, they're like, oh, hey. Hey. I heard about you from Becky, who I trust. So that trust kind of kind of comes along with those people, as long as somebody's not, like, going to Reddit and just, like, sharing a link. So I think there's, I don't know, there's different types of referrals. But overall, it's been really good for at least my newsletter.

Jay Clouse [00:30:27]:
Just a quick break for our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. And now back to the show. What do you think about the relationship between content and community?

Becky Davidson [00:30:37]:
I think content's overplayed in community, and it's about connection. And we get so worried about having enough to keep people busy that they wanna stick around, that they're not focused enough on how do you actually foster connections between people, which has a lot to do with capturing data, which you do really well. Like, hey. Tell me where you're at. What are your goals? What are you doing right now? What do you care about? Hey. Based on all of those answers, you really need to meet Chanel, and then you facilitate that conversation just like you would a friend. Right? Like

Jay Clouse [00:31:10]:
Yeah.

Becky Davidson [00:31:10]:
At the conference, I'm sure you guys experienced this a lot like I did this week with, you know, just, hey. You 2 would really get along because you have this thing in common. Like, I met this woman, Bethany, who's starting an agency and has a podcast. And I was like, how do you have a podcast? Because I wanna do that, but, like, it seems like a lot. And it was so helpful. And somebody you introduced us. Yeah. Yeah.

Becky Davidson [00:31:30]:
I

Jay Clouse [00:31:31]:
think I agree with that take. I think, our like you said, our tendency is to think stuff and, even if you don't think stuff right out of the box, as you create more assets and artifacts through the existence of the membership, you actually get to a point where you just have so much there that you have a new problem of helping people navigate and not be overwhelmed when they get in there.

Becky Davidson [00:31:53]:
Overwhelm is the number one reason people leave memberships. They come in, they're overwhelmed, and they're like, this isn't for me. I don't know where to start. I feel stressed, and they dip, and they don't come back. And that results in a cancellation because they're not logging in again. And so that's why onboarding is so important, and it is important to show them around if you do have a lot. But something that people in this industry don't know as well is, like, information architecture. And so being able to organize if you do have a large content library, you need to have, like, sorts, which I saw you guys have started adding, like, some filters.

Jay Clouse [00:32:26]:
I'm really excited about it.

Becky Davidson [00:32:27]:
New feature.

Jay Clouse [00:32:28]:
But I'm also, like, taking it slow and thinking about it because I I don't wanna be reactive and change the entire information architecture.

Becky Davidson [00:32:33]:
Yeah. You have to be take it slow for sure.

Jay Clouse [00:32:35]:
Like, here's an example. So in the lab, we have spaces like main chat and feedback, but recently created spaces that are like Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube.

Becky Davidson [00:32:45]:
Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:32:46]:
And those haven't taken as well as I would want, to be perfectly honest. But I still believe in the information architecture of this because I want people who really care about YouTube to feel like they have a place where they're not gonna bug people if they're like, tell me which thumbnail I like. And if I'm not interested in YouTube, I probably don't wanna see that. So there is a world where I could actually take all those platforms and make them topics inside of main chat, but then anybody who's subscribed to notifications in main chat are gonna see that. So I'm I'm trying to be really thoughtful about how I use topics in there, but I'm really excited about it. And I think it's really good for onboarding because, like, I already topic the hot seat recordings. I'm going to topic the experiments so that when people come in, I can present them with, like, a quick questionnaire and say, what do you care about? And say, okay. Go to this space, toggle by this topic.

Jay Clouse [00:33:36]:
These are gonna be the most relevant experiments, recordings, etcetera. So I've been doing a lot there, but I also think you could be reactive And changing information architecture is another way to create overwhelm and

Becky Davidson [00:33:47]:
Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:33:47]:
Spin people out to where they don't come back.

Becky Davidson [00:33:50]:
Yeah. Especially your existing members that Yes. Know where to find things.

Jay Clouse [00:33:54]:
Yes.

Becky Davidson [00:33:55]:
But one of the things that you you said was, like, that first conversation or that first onboarding form, there's a huge opportunity that people miss which is around personalization. And a lot of it is because of the platforms. But if you could could take your your intake form and then send an automated email or whatever it is, that's like, here's the three things that are gonna impact you the most right now, and you're sending them to that link where it's already filtered for them, like, read these posts, that I think is the best nobody does it. It's like Nobody.

Jay Clouse [00:34:28]:
In a world where the tools are great, tools are better than ever. But, like, if I've seen a circle community, I've seen a circle community.

Becky Davidson [00:34:35]:
Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:34:36]:
So, like, there there are there are things there are some ways you can customize the space and make it look and feel different and, like, I really try to do that. But the experience itself is what you have to make different so that people are like, oh, another one of these, you know. Yep. And just nobody nobody does this.

Chenell Basilio [00:34:51]:
So I'm curious, like, what kind of data you were talking about collected. Because I'm when you're saying this, I'm like, I should do this for my free newsletter. How do I get people what they need as soon as they subscribe?

Jay Clouse [00:35:01]:
I'm thinking about this a lot also right now, by the way. We should talk about this. Yeah. We should jam on this. But you in person.

Becky Davidson [00:35:07]:
Well, you have a lot of data already. Mhmm. So you did a survey to get a I'm I hope that's okay. Sure. But you did a survey and, like, collected a bunch of research on your potential members, and you're gonna going to invite this pilot group. I would definitely I mean, if you can do, like, one to ones with your pilot group, and, I mean, I would really just spend time getting to know all their pain points. That's gonna tell you a lot about what to put in the form to make it, like, not manual in the future. Automated.

Chenell Basilio [00:35:36]:
Same thing.

Jay Clouse [00:35:36]:
Same thing.

Becky Davidson [00:35:38]:
Like, what's that word? So I would start manual because then you can really get those in-depth, like, but why, but why, but why questions so that you really understand what their root challenges are. Mhmm. Because you need to know what the categories are. And if you just jump to assumption about what the categories are, then you might be missing something. So Interesting. It's basically have the one to one conversations and then use that to create the form that becomes the, like, automated version in the future. Did Did that answer your question?

Chenell Basilio [00:36:08]:
Kind of. It did. But I'm thinking, like, as someone subscribes to the free newsletter, how can I get a few pieces of information and just like Do you

Jay Clouse [00:36:17]:
have a paid newsletter?

Chenell Basilio [00:36:18]:
Nope. That's what I'm talking about, doing it for the free one.

Jay Clouse [00:36:20]:
Why are you saying free newsletter when it's the only newsletter?

Chenell Basilio [00:36:22]:
Because we're talking about, like, paid communities and memberships. Okay.

Jay Clouse [00:36:25]:
Okay.

Chenell Basilio [00:36:25]:
I'm just trying to make sure I'm

Jay Clouse [00:36:26]:
just trying to read between lines out there.

Chenell Basilio [00:36:29]:
Hopefully. You always think I'm up to something.

Jay Clouse [00:36:31]:
Well, I mean, I'm very particular about language. I'm like, why is the word free here?

Chenell Basilio [00:36:36]:
And just, like, get a few pieces of information and then, like, redirect them to the right, Like, maybe the best deep dive for them to jump into 1st instead of, like, here's the archive.

Becky Davidson [00:36:45]:
Oh, I love that idea.

Jay Clouse [00:36:46]:
Yeah.

Becky Davidson [00:36:46]:
That's really smart.

Chenell Basilio [00:36:47]:
I wonder if I could do that with the right message.

Jay Clouse [00:36:49]:
You could. I'm, this is code name Project Rabbit Hole

Chenell Basilio [00:36:53]:
Oh. For

Jay Clouse [00:36:53]:
me. I want to be able the best feedback you can get from people is I just found your channel. I just found your thing, and I've been binging it. Yeah. Super easy to do in YouTube. Fairly easy to do in podcasting, I guess. And the more similar your podcast episodes to one another, the easier that bingeability is. As you have, like, a more diverse type of person or outcomes that they want, the harder it is to help people to facilitate the binge in a way that serves them.

Jay Clouse [00:37:27]:
So, yeah, I'm thinking about this a lot, and I I one experiment I'm doing right now that's being pretty productive is any long form piece of content I have, I manually choose the follow-up thing they should read from that thing. And I think you could actually probably do a previous thing from that thing also. Like, somewhere in the back end, taking all of your long form, what you think is, like, evergreen enduring work and saying, if, you know, gun to my head, I had to put this in a linear progression for the customer journey, How would I order these articles so that you could just move people place to place? And, again, like, the more down the center of the lane all of your content is towards some particular thing, the easier that is. For me, it's really challenging because people care about different platforms, and maybe we're talking about attention over here and monetization over here. So it's been challenging for me and why I'm thinking about it a lot. But I think it's a great opportunity to help people self identify where they are in the journey and then say, okay, We've actually put everything in a linear progression, and it sounds like your starting point should be here. And, if and when you ever branch on to other platforms, you can pull in things like, I'm thinking, how do I make that linear progression that combines new, essays, podcast, and YouTube? Because all of them are designed to be evergreen. And I just think it's a lot a lot of opportunity to go from, like, a session where I'm reading one thing to on average me reading more than one thing.

Jay Clouse [00:38:58]:
That incremental change played out over thousands of people sessions per year, played out over 7 years, I think, is a huge compounding opportunity. That's fascinating.

Chenell Basilio [00:39:12]:
There's got to be an AI of something like that coming out.

Jay Clouse [00:39:15]:
I have help on Project Rabbit Hole, and he's been trying to put it into chat gpt and categorize them. And, honestly, at this point, I probably could have done it manually a little bit faster. This is not a remark on him. It's just not it hasn't been as effective as I think either of us thought it might be. But we're probably not doing it optimally also. Interesting.

Becky Davidson [00:39:38]:
Chanel, you led your workshop today, and during that, we pulled up your,

Jay Clouse [00:39:44]:
website. I saw you subscribe with, like, a plus one, and I screenshot it. And I sent it to her. I'm like, what you doing?

Becky Davidson [00:39:52]:
She showed me that. But we pulled up your, like, post, subscribe, right message. Uh-huh. And I think there's a really amazing opportunity to get people to tell you you just a little bit about, like, maybe their niche or industry, and then maybe what subscriber level they're at. Are they starting their newsletter letter? Do they already have one? If you had those tags, be able to, like, send them a customized welcome sequence, like, if you had a few. So it's almost like quiz results.

Chenell Basilio [00:40:22]:
I do have that, but I'm not using it. So I have to do that.

Jay Clouse [00:40:26]:
Super powerful. And the the earlier you start thinking about your content as a linear progression, the easier this is.

Becky Davidson [00:40:31]:
They don't wanna do this.

Jay Clouse [00:40:32]:
Going back in time and trying to do it put, like, after the fact, so much work. And it's, like, such a bummer to think about approaching it because it's, like, such a huge project. Actually, we just did it on the podcast site too. If you're listening to this in your podcast player, go to the app, go in the show notes, and there's gonna be a line that says recommended next episode. Every podcast in our entire back catalog, we chose a recommended next episode for, like, a 196 episodes. Because, again, if I can turn one listen into more than one listen on average played out over all the people who see it over years of time, So much of my journey has been really hard and has been, like, tiny incremental things like that just compounded over years has been the only way that I've gotten here.

Chenell Basilio [00:41:16]:
Well, you could effectively double your listens if every person goes in and listens to the next one.

Jay Clouse [00:41:21]:
It doesn't have to be double. It's like 25% lift per week is compounding like a huge lift per month per year.

Chenell Basilio [00:41:29]:
That's a lot.

Jay Clouse [00:41:29]:
Then 3 like, it's I think it's a big deal. So, you know, I'm using short dot io links to track all of that so I can see where did I recommend the best. And, you know, those numbers aren't huge. But every time I see, like, oh, somebody clicked on the short. Io link for the recommended episode in this episode, that is a session that turned from one listen to 2 listens. And that's that's the game.

Chenell Basilio [00:41:52]:
Well and it's it's awesome because it's taking episodes that probably got buried for someone new or coming in, and you're taking that and turning it into an evergreen piece of content that you're now getting more listens on.

Jay Clouse [00:42:01]:
In a world where I'm I've never been less optimistic about SEO. How do we get more work out of our back catalog? I think this is it.

Chenell Basilio [00:42:10]:
I love that. Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:42:12]:
Alright. Final comments. Becky, anything spicy that we didn't touch on?

Becky Davidson [00:42:18]:
Yeah. I do have one thing.

Jay Clouse [00:42:19]:
Let's hear it.

Becky Davidson [00:42:20]:
Chanel talked about her pilot she wants to run for her community, and I think one of the things people get wrong the most is that they assume that they're developing the thing for the people, but you need to cocreate it. Like, there needs to be feedback loops, like, don't skip a pilot, put your thing out there, but get feedback continuously and make it better. Not in the sense that, like, you run your beta, so you record all the content, give it to them, and then you're like, okay. Beta's over. I got people to sign up for it. Now I'm gonna launch it. Like, no. Then you make it better.

Becky Davidson [00:42:48]:
You iterate and really care about the customer experience.

Jay Clouse [00:42:53]:
On that point, I talked about this in my workshop here this week. I think cohort based courses or let's just say live learning programs

Chenell Basilio [00:43:01]:
from

Jay Clouse [00:43:01]:
a product development standpoint are a great starting point.

Chenell Basilio [00:43:03]:
Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:43:04]:
1, because people tend to value live interaction with you higher than a self paced thing. 2, you get so much data back from the people that you're teaching, that you're selling to. And most people, even who start using a live learning program, give up too early. Like, Tiago Forte told me that building a second brain didn't really turn a corner until cohort 10. He ran 10 before he was like, this is working. Justin Moore, like, same thing. He did so many cohorts of, Brand Deal Wizard before he felt like it was working. Most people either give up or diversify too too soon, in my opinion.

Jay Clouse [00:43:43]:
Final takes.

Chenell Basilio [00:43:45]:
I would say that quality is the most important thing you can do, and trying to just improve your stuff by 1% every week or every time you you create a piece of content. And then just care about your people. Like, actually just take the time and be like, okay. Like, we were talking earlier. Like, you have 300 people on an email list. That's a lot of people. It's not just a number. Like, those are actual people behind that.

Chenell Basilio [00:44:07]:
And so I think we forget that a lot.

Jay Clouse [00:44:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. I really enjoyed this conference. I think this is the most I've enjoyed an in person event.

Chenell Basilio [00:44:15]:
Yeah. It's

Jay Clouse [00:44:15]:
a good one. But you're saying a lot. You do a great job of programming. So next year, come to Fracture Commerce. Hang out with us.