#206: How I’d approach hosting in-person events

Jay Clouse [00:00:14]:
Hello, my friend. Welcome back to another episode of Creator Science. This week, I am sharing a recent conversation with a friend of the podcast, Justin Moore. Justin has been on the show a bunch of times, most recently in May. He's a member of LAB, the founder of Creator Wizard, and the guy to learn sponsorship strategy from. Justin is making some big moves right now. Next year, he's publishing his first book, Sponsor Magnet, and he's hosting an in person sponsorship summit. When we were at Craft and Commerce back in June, he and I took some time to talk in the kit studios about how I'd approach that event if I were him.

Jay Clouse [00:00:49]:
Who were him? What's him? What's the grammatically correct version of that? I don't know. This was originally part of his Creator Wizard podcast, which I will link in the show notes. It was really fun. I've thought about events a lot. It's not out of the realm of possibility that I would host my own in person event in the near future. So if you'd attend an event like that, something hosted by me with a mind for community and connecting people, shoot me a message and let me know. I'd love to hear what you think about that. I've also linked 2 past episodes in the show notes with Barry Baumgartner and Michael Stelsner.

Jay Clouse [00:01:18]:
Both of those episodes are about hosting in person events, but those 2 take wildly different approaches. I mentioned them both in this episode. So if this captures your interest, I'd recommend you catch up on those episodes next. Okay. That's enough for me. Let's jump in. Let's hear what he's thinking for his event next year. And I feel like the best events are the ones where people are talking about it long after the event.

Jay Clouse [00:01:40]:
So I would probably personally start with that goal. Like, how do I make this something that people talk about and already penciled on the counter that they wanna do it next year? And I don't have to do that much marketing because they're talking about it constantly and I have more people in year 2 that came in year 1.

Justin Moore [00:01:51]:
Jake Klaus. Justin Moore.

Jay Clouse [00:01:53]:
How you

Justin Moore [00:01:53]:
doing, man? My best friend.

Jay Clouse [00:01:55]:
Yes. I'm doing well. I'm actually feeling really great. I think this might be the, most I've enjoyed an event experience

Justin Moore [00:02:04]:
that I can remember. Dude, extremely same, actually.

Jay Clouse [00:02:08]:
Really?

Justin Moore [00:02:09]:
Because I've just maximized time just like hanging with people.

Jay Clouse [00:02:13]:
Yeah. It it feels like I feel like anytime you go to any event, it's this feeling of like anxiety around, am I going to do the best I can to get the most out of this? Am I doing the best? You know, it feels like finite time bound opportunity that you can either do well or not. And, I'm not white knuckling this and, like, trying to do the best, but everything is naturally flowing in a really positive way. Also, ConvertKit, this is your 2nd year crafting commerce? It is. Also my 2nd year crafting commerce. Super impressed by how they think through programming and the way they, pile on extra nice things for attendees, but also for speakers. Like this. Like this.

Justin Moore [00:03:01]:
Like this brand new podcast studio they've created?

Jay Clouse [00:03:03]:
Brand new podcast studio. Mhmm. I think they're very thoughtful about the amount of programming, the makeup of the programming. The people on the main stages are prepped really well. And it, isn't like people pitching their thing like it is like practitioners sharing things that they're learning and doing. I just I appreciate the balance of all of it. And then as a speaker, give me the opportunity to meet other speakers in a couple of different ways. Headshots we got last year Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:03:34]:
As like a complimentary thing. It's literally the headshot that I use on everything now. So, yeah, I'm really enjoying this event.

Justin Moore [00:03:43]:
You know, speaking of events, I wanted to actually talk about my new event called the Sponsorship Strategy Summit, in which we're planning for next year. And I'm feeling quite stuck on it, actually. Really? Yeah. A bit stuck because I've I've talked with quite a few people here, and I've got everyone has is very opinionated about what you should do in the programming style and all these things. And I feel a bit stuck because some somehow I feel like I may be thinking too small. You know? Because it's like part of it is like there's so much excitement and energy of anyone I talk to. They're like, that's a great idea. I would come to that actually.

Justin Moore [00:04:22]:
And so it's like, you know, I had I've talked about the fact that I, you know, we're considering like a 100 to a 150 attendee kind of cap. And it was specifically, it's designed intentionally. Like I want it to be a very much kind of a workshop y feel.

Jay Clouse [00:04:37]:
Mhmm.

Justin Moore [00:04:38]:
I haven't mentioned this anywhere publicly, first time, but it's like,

Jay Clouse [00:04:40]:
I want

Justin Moore [00:04:40]:
it to be outcome focused. I want it to be you walk away every attendee walks away with a fully vetted pitch.

Jay Clouse [00:04:46]:
No events do that, by

Justin Moore [00:04:47]:
the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, fully vetted yeah. Fully vetted pitch. I want there to be stations where you can, like, get your media kit made or optimized with someone on our team. I wanna do a Shark Tank style pitch roast event with brand representatives.

Justin Moore [00:05:04]:
The winner gets a deal. I think I already got a sponsor. Actually, someone lined up for this Amazing. From here, which is amazing. And so it's like those are all things that it feels like a lot of people would be excited about. And so part of me thinks, like, maybe I'm thinking too small. But, like, on the one hand, I think the larger the attendee size, the harder it is to do things like that. You know?

Jay Clouse [00:05:23]:
I know next to nothing about events. Yeah. So I'll tell you my assumptions and how I think about it, and we'll just kinda go from there. My assumption is there's probably a, like a barbell situation with events where below some number of people is optimal and then above some number of people is optimal, both from an experience and economic standpoint. And I bet there's a middle ground that's kind of awkward.

Justin Moore [00:05:53]:
Mhmm.

Jay Clouse [00:05:53]:
So when you say, like, a 150 people, I'm wondering if that's beyond the first threshold and not quite at the larger scale threshold where, like, you might lose the ability to do things that you could do when it's even smaller, but it it's smaller than it could be based on the experience it has to be for that number of people. You know what I mean? Like, if it was 40 or 50 people, you personally could ostensibly spend time with everybody there. Mhmm. At a 150, that's not true. Right. So if you have to design the experience for a 150 people, would that experience be the same if it was 400 people? And those are these are arbitrary numbers. I'm just saying that's what I would be thinking through is, like, why that number? At that number, does it preclude me from doing things that I could do if it was smaller? And does it open up the opportunity to do something

Justin Moore [00:06:45]:
bigger? There's a reason that your brand is called creator science, because you you just spit some hot scientific flames onto this s m 7 b. Every time

Jay Clouse [00:06:54]:
we do an event like this you know, we do we do a dinner for the lab, and that's, like, 20 to 30 of us. And I think to myself also, like, man, it'd be dope just

Justin Moore [00:07:03]:
to, like,

Jay Clouse [00:07:03]:
have an event for the community. Not all 200 people would show up. It'd probably be, like, 50 to a 100 people. And then I go down this rabbit hole of thinking, okay. What's the model of that? Am I charging community members a ticket price, or should I bake it into membership knowing that not everybody's gonna do the event? And then I think, well, if it's gonna be ticketed, why not just make it bigger? I have the audience to support it. And then I think, well, if I'm gonna do a bigger style event, I should probably assume that I'm gonna do multiple events because you're probably not gonna make money or that much money in years 1 through 3, on the event itself. Mhmm. But it's a big brand builder.

Jay Clouse [00:07:37]:
And if you're gonna do that, that's probably the assumption that you're building an asset that could be sold. And so every time I start thinking about, like, doing a small lab event, it becomes, do I wanna build a large scale conference to sell? And then I think, no, I don't wanna do that. And then I don't know what the model is for the smaller side. And I say, actually, the status quo is fine. But, yeah. I think about I have thought about these, like, the size thing in particular. But what I love that what you said was you want us to be outcome focused because, like, no events are like that. Like, the events are we want you to walk away with takeaways and feeling transformed and whatever.

Jay Clouse [00:08:08]:
But there's never like, this is an artifact that we promise when you come, you will leave with us. An artifact or a very specific outcome. Which I think is really compelling to say, hey, block your calendar, buy a ticket, come out here. You put your butt in the seat, we're gonna walk you through the process, and you're gonna come out the other side with this thing. It's like a condensed cohort based course live. And this all sounds revolutionary, but it's like the way humans have taught and learned for forever. You know? So I think it's I think it's cool.

Justin Moore [00:08:35]:
You know, one thing I I definitely hallway conversations that I've heard many times, not here, but other conferences that, there's been conferences that I've attended multiple years in a row in a row, and I'll hear the conversations where it's just like it's different. It's different now.

Jay Clouse [00:08:50]:
Mhmm.

Justin Moore [00:08:51]:
It's it's gotten bigger. The vibe's different. Previously, like, you know, I come from the kinda influencer YouTuber type sphere, and so it's like, oh, man. Previously, like, the all the creators were just walking around the hallway, and you could, like, run into him and talk and all that stuff and do. Now everyone's behind closed doors, and you you can't really see it. And it's this, like, exclusive thing. And so it's like there I feel like there is some sort of thing where it's like as something gets larger, it loses some

Jay Clouse [00:09:19]:
It's about expectations. Yeah. Like, if if the expectation wasn't I'm gonna run into this influence in the hallway, and the expectation was I'm gonna see this person, but I can't access them, then they wouldn't be upset. Yeah. But when the expectation is set and then the experience does not live up to it and changes, that's the issue. The problem though is that it experience does not live up to it and changes, that's the issue.

Justin Moore [00:09:34]:
The problem, though, is that

Jay Clouse [00:09:35]:
it was never an explicit promise. It was like that was just the culture or the dynamic

Justin Moore [00:09:36]:
that developed organically from it being an intimate event. Yeah. And just by the nature of, like, negative experiences that those people had, they had to introduce new guardrails to, like, not protect, but, like, kind of, because, you know, some people are can be not great, you know, in those types of circumstances. Yeah. I don't know. I think I think about that kind of stuff. It just and so it's like I I try to think, like, I wanna balance the, like, maximal impact goals that I have with the outcome goals that I have and not trying to create perverse dynamics for the attendees. You know?

Jay Clouse [00:10:17]:
Yeah. So you want tell me about the economics you want from the event. You don't want to tell me, like, how much money you want to make from it. My question is, do you want it to I

Justin Moore [00:10:24]:
just don't wanna lose money. That's, like, the main

Jay Clouse [00:10:25]:
Okay.

Justin Moore [00:10:26]:
The main thing. I would like to make money, but, like, I would mainly So, so, okay. Here's another thing I struggle. I'm just gonna get real honest here, is that, you know, I talked to some of the folks here, not at ConvertKit, but some other folks who run a conference, and they said, we lose money. We lose money every year, but it's all like a loss leader. Like, we get clients from it and all this stuff. It's like a conscious thing. Right? And so, you know, part of my, the economics of this whole thing is like, I don't wanna make an event where it feels like a giant sales pitch for the next thing.

Justin Moore [00:10:56]:
I don't want that. But at the same time, I feel very strongly that the ongoing coaching that my team can provide directly to you, that is the most exciting model for me, like moving forward into the future, rather than, okay, I take you through this course, you learn the fundamentals. That's great. See, I'm never gonna talk to you again. Having the ability to like continue to impact people on an ongoing basis with tricky deals, that feels so exciting to me to help continue to support people. And so I would love to be able to have some sort of offer at the end of the conference where it's like, hey, we just like helped you get all these outcomes. And like, now here's an offer, an amazing offer, you know, to work with us for a whole year or something like that. Right? And so I I just feel friction of, like, doing that in a way that feels heart centered and not like, oh, like, if you don't join this, you're not part of the cool club.

Justin Moore [00:11:46]:
You know? It's like, I don't know. What what do you think about that?

Jay Clouse [00:11:48]:
You will hear exactly what I think about that after one quick break for our sponsors. And now please enjoy the rest of my conversation with Justin Moore. Yeah. I agree with that. So the model for I've had 2 interviews about events on the podcast, and that is the extent of my knowledge of events. And the first interview was very much being the drum of, it should be a 3 day event. It should be a transformational event that builds up to basically a sale of some high ticket program at the end, and that's where you make your money. Everything up to that, you hope to break even as much as you can on the cost, but you make your money on the offer on the back end.

Jay Clouse [00:12:22]:
And then I spoke to somebody who was like, no. Understand your economics, bake it all into the ticket, and don't make the event about being sold to from you or from sponsors. So I think there's a model for both. And I think as long as you're selling the event as you get an outcome at this event and people do get that outcome, anything on top of that is a bonus. And you can totally pitch whatever and some people will be like, yes, that's good. And everyone else will be like, I got what I came for. Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:12:47]:
I think where events could go wrong is this, like, big rah rah three day thing where it's like, you're gonna get this. And what you get is, like, increased hope of that, but sorry, you still have to do this thing. Mhmm. But I think the economics could work. And again, depending on the size of event that you want, that's going to filter for, the size and scale of Creator in some ways. And so if you wanted to do a bigger event, that's probably gonna mean that the ticket price is is lower. And on average, fewer people are gonna be qualified for your offer at the end. If you did the smaller event, you could make it more intimate, make the experience itself more premium, spend more time with everybody, appeal to, a more advanced creator with more resources, and then I think that offer becomes a higher converting thing at the end too.

Justin Moore [00:13:35]:
When I was, talking about the ticket price that we were kind of envisioning, multiple people have told me, like, that's way too cheap. And I was like, really?

Jay Clouse [00:13:45]:
Like What price do you have?

Justin Moore [00:13:46]:
It was sub a1000. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were also kind of pegging it at some of the other conferences, that, you know, creator focused conferences. You know? That surprised me. I don't I don't know. Especially, I guess, because I was envisioning this as more of like a master mind y type.

Jay Clouse [00:14:00]:
The beauty of your entire business is that the promise is so clear and so directly tied to an ROI. So, like, you have probably is this would it would be accurate to say higher price elasticity or lower price elasticity? You have you have higher you have less price sensitivity. Less price sensitivity. Yeah. That's what we should say. Accurate. Yeah. Which is great.

Jay Clouse [00:14:22]:
That gives you, like, a lot of opportunity. I mean, I feel like the best events are the ones where people are talking about it long after the event. So I would probably personally start with that goal. Like, how do I make this something that people talk about and already penciled into the calendar that they wanna do it next year? And I don't have to do that much marketing because they're talking about it constantly, and I have more people in year 2 than came in year 1. And so I will be focused on the experience, which probably means you're gonna have ideas that are like, it's gonna cost more money. So how do you do that? Do you do that with more people and trying to sell more tickets? I would probably actually go hyper premium, try to get people who are aspirational creators, who talk about how good this experience was, and now all the people that they're mentoring and talking to, they wanna come in here too.

Justin Moore [00:15:10]:
When you say hyper premium, what does that mean?

Jay Clouse [00:15:12]:
Are you familiar with Capital Camp?

Justin Moore [00:15:14]:
Is no. Was that the thing you did in Columbus?

Jay Clouse [00:15:18]:
No. It's it was in Columbia, Missouri.

Justin Moore [00:15:21]:
Oh, yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:15:21]:
So it's Brent B. Shore and Patrick O'Shaughnessy. They're like finance guys. And they do this event called Capital Camp that's probably less than 200 people. Ticket sales the 1st year were $5,000 and ticket sales now are like $10,000 a ticket for a couple days. So they priced me out, but people rave about this event, because, like, every meal is made by a Michelin Star Chef. Half of the event is not presentations or talking at all. It's like, we're doing this at a lake and here are kayaks.

Jay Clouse [00:15:57]:
And here's axe throwing. And here's like a rifle rearrange. You know, it's like it's like shared experiences, curating people. But, you know, they're not promising a specific outcome the way you are. If you're gonna get that done, there's gonna have to be time spent together. Right. But I do think events typically tend to over plan the programming side of things in terms of, like, teaching content. Mhmm.

Jay Clouse [00:16:24]:
Because I've never been at an event and been like, I wish there were more talks. You know what I mean? It's always like, I wish there was more space Yeah. Is what I'm always thinking at events. Right. So I think, the one event experience I had that was great, have I told you about my Alaska event experience? I

Justin Moore [00:16:39]:
think you did, but tell me the story again.

Jay Clouse [00:16:41]:
So it was a it was a co working space in Alaska, and it was like small business owners. They would get the people of this co working space and then fly in a couple of outsiders like me. It was a 3 day event. There's, like, 40 of us. They also had, like, a chef who had cooked for Obama there that was, like, making our food. There are few enough attendees that every attendee also was involved in leading a session. Mhmm. So there was no hierarchy Mhmm.

Jay Clouse [00:17:08]:
Which was great. Mhmm. One thing I like about being a speaker at events is as an introvert, people now come to me, and I don't have to, like, work too hard to meet people. But an event like that, that's not true. But also, there's no ego. There's no, like, closed off rooms. You're sitting next to somebody at a session and you're just having fun meeting them. They seem really cool.

Jay Clouse [00:17:28]:
And then you go to the next session. Oh, they're speaking. Oh, they're an athlete for Red Bull, like, snowboarding down a mountain in the back country, and they got hit by an avalanche and they overcame that. It's like it was just crazy because everyone was so humble, but on the same level. So I think it makes more sense to start there and potentially get bigger over time than the inverse. You know, try to go big and more broad and then say, actually, I'm gonna scale this down. But I also struggle with playing small by default most of the time. So maybe that's that story.

Justin Moore [00:18:03]:
I'm gonna pull this thread for a second. So going down the hyper premium, I don't know if I'll go hyper premium, but maybe let's say premium. If I were to court someone like you well, you're coming because you're my best friend. But, like, if I was to court someone like you who is already doing sponsorships

Jay Clouse [00:18:19]:
Yeah.

Justin Moore [00:18:19]:
Who would find the value in going to an event like this, I mean, the programming would have to be different than what I just said because pitching brands or does that crafting a pitch, you're probably already getting a lot of inbound or you've you know, maybe you're getting a healthy flow. What would what's in your brain of, like, what what would be an outcome that you would hope to get out of an event like that?

Jay Clouse [00:18:39]:
I would wanna make the operations smoother. And, like, I mean, just the ultimate outcome is like more revenue and less time in your sponsorship operations would be what I would be interested in. But also, I have blind spots. Like, if you if you have talked to enough people like me and you know, okay, you're doing sponsorships, but almost everyone in your position is forgetting to do, you know, follow-up reporting or this really simple process innovation that lands more repeat sponsorships. Like, I don't know what I don't know. So yeah. Maybe I think, oh, I can get sponsorships. Fine.

Jay Clouse [00:19:21]:
But I'm sure I'm missing 3 steps out of your your sponsorship wheel in my current process. Mhmm. Probably because I'm unaware of them. Mhmm. You know? So I think maybe you changed it a a little bit, but probably a lot of it still holds. And the assumption isn't you've never gotten a sponsor. I need to teach you how to get your 1st sponsor. And it's like, let's turn up the dial because you're probably doing it really inefficiently both in terms of what you're earning and how you're managing the process.

Justin Moore [00:19:52]:
How much do you feel interaction with other attendees at a conference like that would be versus learning from me and my team and, you know, kind of the experts on on the sponsorship stuff? Like, what element does kind of the community or the other attendees like, does that matter? Because, like, a huge part of, like, this event, for example, is, like, I love just, like, hanging out and going to dinner, and, like, I learn I do learn a lot from, like, what other people's businesses and things like that, but, like, I guess I would imagine that the promise would not be explicit, though. Like, hey. You're gonna learn a bunch about sponsorship operations or pitching or something from the other attendees.

Jay Clouse [00:20:26]:
I think what would be really frustrating is if you assumed it didn't matter. And then in the course of the event, I had a chance to interact with people, and my thought was, damn, I wish I had more time to talk to that person. That would be the bummer. And if you think that the people who are coming to the event are going to have that reaction of, I'm going to just want to talk to the other people that are here, I think you wanna hold space for it.

Justin Moore [00:20:49]:
The one fear I always had with my course that became a pro, or that became something I was optimistic about, was I was fearful that people would join at wildly different stages of their journey, following levels, sponsorship revenue size, and then they would get put into a breakout room during the live cohort with someone who like had only ever done one deal or something for like $500, and people are like, what the heck is this? You know? But what I often found was that the commonality or the thing that was most interesting to people was listening to people that were making good money on platforms they weren't on. Mhmm. So they found you know, a TikToker would like be in a room with someone who had a newsletter. Totally. That would totally happen. This cross pollination and things like that. And so that was that was a beautiful accident, I would say. Yeah.

Justin Moore [00:21:38]:
And so maybe it's something similar where it's like maybe the groupings that I could make would would be around, not around sponsorships per se, but in terms of the way in which those people's businesses are are structured.

Jay Clouse [00:21:50]:
And if it was a small enough number of attendees, you and your team could actually, like, really stack the deck and do that. The more people you have, the harder that matching exercise becomes. So that's another, like, aspect of how far do you wanna go in curating the experience and stacking the deck in your favor and where does that break with the number of attendees. Because that would happen, for sure. I can't see a world where you invite people in and they don't interact. And when they do interact, they're gonna be like, I wanna ask that person more questions. Mhmm. So I do think you need to hold space for it and maybe even create opportunities for that to happen intentionally.

Jay Clouse [00:22:25]:
I think things are also a little bit different depending on is it the creator who's coming to the conference, or is it, like, someone else on their team? Because I think the creators are gonna wanna geek out on the creative side of things with each other. Whereas, if it's someone on my team who's responsible for sponsorships, they're probably gonna be here to try to, like, learn the thing, come back, and give us the download. It'll be a little bit different. I don't know how common it is that somebody has, like, a sponsorships person and whether that would be the attendee at some scale of this is for creator businesses at this level. But I think that would change the experience a little bit, potentially. So I guess

Justin Moore [00:23:05]:
the balance is, like, how prescriptive do we want to be about, I guess, the programming, but also if we're curating space outside of the programming. I guess the the one also friction point is, like, okay. If we do heavily curate it and say, okay. You're sitting with this person at this table during this thing or whatever, that there would maybe be resentment. Like, oh, I don't wanna, like, talk to that person. Like, why are they assigning me that?

Jay Clouse [00:23:27]:
You don't have to say that, yeah, I don't know. You could say we curated this, or you can be like, this was set at random and here's your group.

Justin Moore [00:23:34]:
Here are

Jay Clouse [00:23:34]:
the rooms, whether that was intentional or not. But I don't know. It's hard. I I think it's hard to, like, hit a 100% on that stuff, but you're gonna know some people where you you know, like, I can make some magic by putting these 2 people together because I know enough about them, that this is gonna be really good. And those relationships are what persist after the conference and why people talk about it and come back. So again, if, like, you can stack the deck in that way, I

Justin Moore [00:24:04]:
think that's a big win. One thing I'm also trying to figure out is, like, how much am I actually doing anything? Mhmm. Programming, talking, coaching, versus being more of a host and going around the room and making sure you know, kind of floating in and out of different groups and conversations Do you have any, like, sense on, like, that? Again, I don't know much about this, but You're saying that you're hedging a lot, and

Jay Clouse [00:24:29]:
you're you've had some amazing insights. I haven't done it. Like, I think they're like

Justin Moore [00:24:37]:
But you do a lot of virtual stuff, and it's like Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:24:40]:
I think the more that you do put yourself in a position of teaching because you know your and people coming here are gonna know you and know that you know your, I think you can really step into that power, and it would be powerful brand building thing. I could see you also being a really humble person facilitating and centering others, and that would be a really positive experience, but you're probably doing that at some cost to your own authority and ultimately like the outcome of this event. Mhmm. So, I would definitely put yourself in a teaching position because you have a lot to share and people will want to learn from you and it'll be good for the brand. But then, yeah, I would try to, like, float around and build as many connections and relationships as possible. But also you should not be running the ops of your event.

Justin Moore [00:25:30]:
Well, I guess the conclusion is we don't know. We don't know exactly how to run this event.

Jay Clouse [00:25:36]:
Yeah. I I'll be interested to see what you do, and

Justin Moore [00:25:38]:
I'll be there. Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:25:40]:
I would I think in most new products, most new experiences, I usually tend to air on the side of let's do something on the more premium end to start. And then if that goes well and if I want to, move down market, make it more accessible over time. Because that's an easier progression to make with a product than the inverse, you know. It's like the the Tesla model of cars. Like, you make the really nice thing, and then that funds the development of future things that also like, from literal money and also the buzz and marketing around it. And the people who can't quite access that yet are aware of it. It's aspirational. They wanna go.

Jay Clouse [00:26:17]:
And then when it does become accessible to them, they're there and ready and excited. If you, you know, make a Ford Focus, they're not saying, like, I want

Justin Moore [00:26:26]:
the luxury Ford Focus. It's it's interesting though because it seems that kind of the opposite that you do in, like, digital products where it's like you actually you actually wanna be increasing prices and right?

Jay Clouse [00:26:35]:
Well, increasing prices, but not, like, there is the Ascension model. But from a product development and, release standpoint, I think you want to release a more premium product first Yeah. Yeah. And then move down market.

Justin Moore [00:26:49]:
That's true. So I did do that with the course, I guess. Yeah. And interesting. Well, I guess TBD for another day. But thank you very much, man. This is this is very fun. And where can people learn more about creative science? Creatorscience.com.

Justin Moore [00:27:02]:
That was easy.

Jay Clouse [00:27:03]:
Great CTA. And thank you to Kit for the wonderful in person studio. Yes. Incredible. Incredible. Kit.com, formerly ConvertKit. Check it out. If you enjoyed this episode, take a screenshot, take a photo, tag me at jklaus on whatever social platform you love most and let me me know.

Jay Clouse [00:27:28]:
I love seeing these messages, and I do my best to reshare each and every one of them. If you look at the show notes for this episode, you'll find links for everything mentioned as well as a recommended episode to listen to next. And if you don't already subscribe to the Creator Science email newsletter, I highly recommend you take a moment to do so. Every Sunday, I write an essay that will help you improve as a creator and it takes less than 10 minutes to read. People have said it's a must read. We have more than 60,000 subscribers. I wish you were one of them. And finally, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Jay Clouse [00:28:00]:
I read all of those and they really helped you a lot to help the show grow. Thanks for listening, and I'll talk to you next week.