#258: Q&A: Goals for our YouTube videos, determining when a new offer is a distraction, validating a product idea, and more

Jay Clouse [00:00:13]:
Hello, my friend. Welcome back to another episode of Creator Science. This is a big week for me and the Creator Science team. We are hosting a two day event in Boise, Idaho for the Lab. This is our first major in person event available to our standard and VIP members. And we have 40 people, four zero making the trip. We're facilitating some planning sessions, small group masterminds. We even have some special guests stopping by for some intimate fireside chats.

Jay Clouse [00:00:42]:
And in the afternoons we have group activities including an escape room, axe throwing and we've even booked kits recording studios for members to record their own content. In the evenings we have dinners and other activities planned. It's two jam packed days, spending lots of time with full time professional creators and all of this was paid for with just a small ticket fee. We aren't trying to make money on this event. We just wanted to break even and test the waters to see that this is something that we really like, that we want to do more of. We've put a ton of work into it and while I'm recording this right now, in this moment, I don't actually know how it's gone yet because I'm recording this on Wednesday. But the planning is done and we're really, really proud of the event we've put together. Assuming it goes well, it's in person.

Jay Clouse [00:01:27]:
Events like this are going to become a key part of being a standard or VIP member of the Lab. I hope we do one event per year in America, one event per year internationally, two events total. I think that would be a very, very fun part of membership. To become a standard or VIP member of the lab, you can apply@creatorscience.com lab we're looking for creators earning an average of $10,000 per month or with a following of 10,000 or more on a single platform, which I know is a high bar. And if you're not there yet, you can still join the Lab today with our basic membership. And we're doing a lot to make that basic membership an absolute bargain. I don't talk about it enough, which is why I'm spending some time talking about it here. As part of the basic membership, you get Creator hq, all of my courses, all of my workshops, many of which aren't available for sale publicly.

Jay Clouse [00:02:18]:
That's more than $1,300 worth of educational material and that is basically twice the cost of a basic membership for the year. And that doesn't include what also comes in basic membership, which is my monthly retros. And now we have a bunch of community features as well, including a community forum and monthly office hours, which is what I'm sharing with you here today.

Jay Clouse [00:02:39]:
Woo.

Jay Clouse [00:02:40]:
Taking a breath. This episode is recording from our most recent office hours in the basic tier of the lab. I'm really impressed by the folks we have in that tier. They're really smart, driven and talented creators who are well on their way to making this a full time thing. And I wanted to let you experience one of these office hours for yourself so you can see for yourself what it might feel like to be in that room and have a better sense for. Is this a place you want to be? If you want to learn more, just visit creatorscience.com lab, which is also listed in the show notes. If you qualify for standard or VIP membership, I really recommend you go that route. But if you're not there yet, the basic membership is built to help you get there faster.

Jay Clouse [00:03:22]:
Okay, that's enough of an intro. Without further ado, let's get into this recording from our most recent office hours in the labs. Basic membership. Hello.

Jay Clouse [00:03:39]:
All right, well, I think we'll, I think we'll dive in, cover everything that we can cover here today.

Tom Burden [00:03:44]:
Jay, I got a question.

Jay Clouse [00:03:45]:
Let's do it.

Tom Burden [00:03:46]:
So I would like to hear your perspective on this because maybe a little bit of tug of war with you and your director. So are you like focusing your video to do a call out to like an email signup or are you focusing more the video to watch the next video?

Jay Clouse [00:04:04]:
Like what is the job of each video we produce?

Tom Burden [00:04:09]:
Yeah, because I mean Connor, he's going to want more. Like focus on YouTube. You are going to want more.

Jay Clouse [00:04:16]:
Yeah, I mean, ultimately I think the piece, I think the job of any piece of content is to make it relatively more likely that the person consuming it will want to consume another piece of content. So top level goal is like people watching this should be glad they watched it. That's more of a standard, I guess, than a goal. As far as the goal goes, it kind of varies piece by piece. So I shared this audio will become an episode of the audio podcast. What's the job of that? The job of that is to show people as opposed to tell them why the community is a good experience. So that's like a conversion based goal to say this piece of content. The goal of that is actually to create awareness not just that the product exists, but to show what the product is like.

Jay Clouse [00:05:13]:
But not every video we create or audio episode is going to be geared towards conversion for this specific product. Our latest YouTube video with Caleb Ralston, the Goal of that video was just to get as many views as possible because we thought it was a really high potential video. And so when we're going through the edit on that, we're thinking, okay, what decisions can we make to improve retention? And then we spend extra time on packaging as well. A video before that with Mark Schust. Mark isn't the biggest name to a random YouTube viewer. So I knew that video wouldn't have the same ceiling probably as our video with Caleb. So the goal for that video was to actually be like pretty niche and nerdy and appeal to like a very small segment of the audience. So really like each piece of content can have its own goal.

Jay Clouse [00:06:10]:
And then in the edit, you decide the decisions that you make and if it conflicts with the goal, you have to say, well, maybe we don't make that decision. Or you say, I guess I'm willing to do that.

Tom Burden [00:06:23]:
Sounds like you have several like standards that you meet with your videos. And then the goal may be different whether like it sounds like the video before Caleb was more like to go deeper with your audience rather than Caleb's strategy was just like get as many people as you can reviews.

Jay Clouse [00:06:41]:
Did you, did you see our video with Patty when he talked about core casual new as his framework?

Tom Burden [00:06:46]:
I don't think I've seen that part.

Jay Clouse [00:06:47]:
Okay, so you have his. His thesis of YouTube is like you have a core audience, you have casual audience and then you have. And each video is going to address one of these ranks. And so for like this thing we're making, this is really for the core audience. People who listen just about every week who already have a good sense of who I am. And regardless of what it's titled, they're going to give it the benefit of the doubt that I want to put that into my week. Then you have a casual video which is like these people have probably already seen a video or two before. They don't watch every video, but when we hit the right topic, they'll come in and then like the Caleb video is in our new bucket where we knew this is going to get in front of new viewers.

Jay Clouse [00:07:43]:
And so everything about this video is edited for more broad appeal than our core audience. So every piece of content, like the standard is this has to be something that if you do take the time and view it, you're net glad that you did. But some videos are really for the core and those tend to be more conversion focused. Other videos as you go outside the circle is more for just like new audience discovery.

Tom Burden [00:08:14]:
So like the core you may try to direct that traffic to an actual purchase or an email. The casual is probably more email or maybe another view. And then the new. Maybe trying to get them to another video to become a casual.

Jay Clouse [00:08:31]:
Yeah, it's difficult to get somebody to go from being a new consumer to making like a large purchase, you know, so typically, if you think about your product suite, it also kind of lines up with this where your more expensive investments are probably in the middle. You might have something that's a little less expensive and something here you might be able to get a new viewer to purchase your, you know, $7 template or whatever. And that is what transfers them into becoming a more casual fan. And eventually, if they watch a few, it's like, man, this is really good. They start to become more of your core audience. And then these folks, you can. You almost need to worry about, like, packaging less because they just give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't have to continuously prove that.

Jay Clouse [00:09:20]:
You don't have to clickbait them as much. You know, like, they just, they're clicking because it's your name, not because of the name of the video would be the way I'd put it. But packaging matters more and more the further out in the circle that you are.

Tom Burden [00:09:33]:
Yeah, it's kind of like a, just like a different perspective of the funnel. We're kind of looking at it from like the end versus the side. That's cool.

Jay Clouse [00:09:41]:
Yeah, yeah, cool.

Tom Burden [00:09:43]:
Thank you.

Jay Clouse [00:09:44]:
Of course. Okay, I see a couple of hands go up. Are these new questions? Pat, I know your hand went up early. Ana, yours went up a little bit later. Do you want to add on to that conversation or do you have a separate question? Okay, then let's go to Pat first.

Pat Gostek [00:09:59]:
So, yeah, I have a, I have a question in regards to starting, let's say kind of a mastermind kind of thing. The question is actually how do I launch that without getting too distracted from my main business? So my main business is running the agency that I, that I run. And it's kind of like the idea. Where the idea comes from is sometimes I get people who kind of like, are on a, on a call with me and they say something like, hey, I need a part time or full time YouTube strategist. But they have a budget of like 500 bucks per month, which is like, obviously, you know, they, they have way higher expectations then I can ever fulfill for that money. And sometimes I say, hey, look, I, I like your channel, I like your topic. And I say, okay, that's, you know, let's have, let's have like one call per. Per month.

Pat Gostek [00:11:08]:
But yeah, it usually ends up with me not being as much engaged, which I hate to disappoint people. What I was thinking of is like, instead of doing that, having asked them ongoingly if they want to join a type of mastermind, but at the same time I'm struggling with when should I add them to kind of a cohort type of thing because they are like maybe I have maybe two calls per week. So I have kind of first of all a pricing issue because I think US$500 for a group type of thing might be too much for them, especially if they want to have YouTube Strategist for 500 bucks. So I have a couple of first of all. And then second of all, I think the first thing is pricing. How would I price something like that? Consistency in terms of how many people can I kind of like ask to, to join? Like, yeah, I don't know, maybe in the beginning it's like a two person thing, which I, I'd rather not do, to be honest. I'd rather have like five or 10 people. I don't want to be distracted from like the main business, which like an average kind of a customer pays around like 3K, which is like with editing, but where I can kind of like give the work to a video editor that I, that I hired.

Pat Gostek [00:12:48]:
And I, I'm doing like, because it's part of the whole thing. I'm doing like YouTube strategy as, as another like, as an add on which like, to be fair, I, I have a lot of margin there. So yeah, that's kind of like I'm.

Pat Gostek [00:13:04]:
All over the place.

Pat Gostek [00:13:05]:
But yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:13:08]:
Okay, so let's start with this. So far, the way you've described it and the data you provided so far, it's screaming bad idea to me. Okay, but let's talk about it. Let's dig into it a little bit.

Pat Gostek [00:13:21]:
That's my initial fault as well.

Jay Clouse [00:13:25]:
There's kind of three different delivery mechanisms of a product or service. You have do it yourself, which is courses, ebooks, templates. You pay for the thing. Here's the thing, you do it all on your own. Then you have a done with you, where it's kind of like, here's the resources. We expect you to take this run with it, do with it. But there is a mechanism for you to get some support and feedback from me. And then there's done for you, which is you pay me, I just do it all for you.

Jay Clouse [00:14:01]:
Right now what you're describing is that your core business is done for you style business. Exactly. And these people value time more than money. Like time is more scarce than money. So they are trading money to maintain their time and move things faster. And what you're describing is that you actually have a lead gen problem where you're getting leads for your done for you service that can't afford it. They're unqualified leads. And so your thought, it sounds like, is to say, well, let's just downsell them kind of a mastermind offer where it's mostly on them.

Jay Clouse [00:14:38]:
But we'll do this just to clarify.

Pat Gostek [00:14:41]:
So the done for you model works because it's like video editing. Plus my kind of like I say, look, I'm going to publish for you, which includes kind of like my expertise in terms of how to package a video. Right. Which is obviously the best solution for someone who wants to have sort of video editing. But also I'm helping them with grow their YouTube channel because it's kind of like they are not thinking in terms of necessarily packaging, but I'm offering this to them kind of like in one package. And the 500 Fox people are like, no, no, no. I'm editing myself. I have already like some editors that I work with that I'm happy with, but I'd like you to guide me.

Pat Gostek [00:15:33]:
And I don't necessarily need video editing services, which is fine. But like, as, as a whole package, I have a lot of margin in the 3k a month, let's say package. But I'm worried that if I like, typically it's kind of like I need to first of all educate them. But at the same time I need to also educate the editors because they are like doing stuff wrong in the beginning with the hook. So that's kind of like where I'm like, ooh, I'm not like 100%. This can work. But I'm thinking like, it could work if I have like 10 people paying me, like, you know, 500 bucks per month where I could educate them.

Jay Clouse [00:16:20]:
Do you have 10 people right now who are coming to you saying, I want this?

Pat Gostek [00:16:24]:
I haven't asked anyone so far. I have like one person who kind of like, you know, is asking me every quarter or so if I'm going to do that. But at the same time, I have at least like two people per week that I could potentially ask because they have like five. They say like 500 to 1,000. And I could say, you know, you're willing to spend 1,000, but that's like, not like that's not enough for me to be part of your team for a thousand per month.

Jay Clouse [00:17:00]:
Well, listen, you're always going to have people who want your services but can't afford them or don't want to pay for them. And yeah, nine times out of ten those people should just be directed elsewhere. If you think you can fill a 10 person mastermind at $500 each, then try it, go ask those 10 people. But what I don't think you should do is take this unqualified lead situation and say, I have a Small Less than 10 Number of people that I feel like are a slam dunk for this. I'm going to create a new product and then go market that product. I think that's absolutely a distraction from the core business. You're going to have to get at least six of them to equate the outcome of signing one new agency client. And that time is coming from somewhere.

Jay Clouse [00:17:55]:
So you could play the game of let's accelerate how quickly I can exhaust this as a potential option and say, let me go email the most likely folks who would be a fit for this $500 mastermind and say, hey, I'm starting a mastermind and it starts on this date and time. Like I think you have to get, I think you have to be very concrete with when it starts and what the price point is and literally ask them to pay for it or it's not validated. And I don't think until you validate that a critical mass of people will pay it in a short period of time, I don't think it's worth it. Anything that's group based like that, the hardest thing is actually coordination. It's not only do you have to get five to 10 people that are a good fit, but you have to get them in this window of time so they can all start at the same time. Which means that typically to get to these 10 people, you need to start with 50 to 100 people who feel like they are a possible good fit to get to 10 who are like, yes, the timing is right, the offer is right, the pricing is right, I'm ready to go. It's a difficult game. And do you already have a product that's working? I think what you have here is there's something about your current lead generation mechanism that's pulling in folks that are not quite the right fit.

Jay Clouse [00:19:17]:
And you don't have to create a product or service to serve that person. You could just hold space for the right fit clients.

Pat Gostek [00:19:26]:
Okay, so for now the recommendation is basically not to do it unless I have a specific date or like, a specific month that I'm starting it. And I have at least like 10, like, six, seven, eight people who already.

Jay Clouse [00:19:45]:
Whatever the number is. Whatever the number is to make it worthwhile to you as quickly as possible. See if you can get that number. But if you can't, then don't do it. Like, I don't think you should start a new service because there's a couple folks who might be a fit for it. That does not suggest that there's a large market that you can reach in the right amount of time.

Pat Gostek [00:20:05]:
It's kind of like.

Pat Gostek [00:20:06]:
It's kind of like in terms of, like, the core agency clients, I get like, maybe one or two people per month, Right. But I get, like, at least two people, sometimes three people per week. So that's kind of like the amount of people who are willing to spend 500 bucks is, you know, almost like infinite, it feels like. So I could easily test the grounds, like, in one month.

Jay Clouse [00:20:36]:
So, I don't know, test it or.

Pat Gostek [00:20:39]:
Thanks for the insight.

Jay Clouse [00:20:42]:
The other thing to consider here is that pricing is about perception of value. I've talked about this a couple times. Right now you have people over here saying, I want strategy. And then you have this price up here of. It's called $1,000. Is what you would feel comfortable with doing a strategy arrangement with them?

Pat Gostek [00:21:08]:
Yeah, that's kind of like the minimum.

Jay Clouse [00:21:11]:
Okay, so what would be the actual number?

Pat Gostek [00:21:15]:
Well, the actual number would be 3k, but with video editing that I can sort of outsource.

Jay Clouse [00:21:23]:
What about just strategy? If it's just strategy, one on one, do just strategy.

Pat Gostek [00:21:27]:
That will be like 2k because it involves me a lot.

Jay Clouse [00:21:31]:
Okay, so right now these folks are saying, I value strategy at $500. And you're saying, well, I'm up here. There's this gap. So either you need to find people who value strategy at $2,000, or you need to call BS on these people that are saying, I only have $500. And see, is that actually true or is that just how you value it because of your stuff or how you're positioning it? Like maybe they value your strategy at $500. I don't mean to be harsh. This has nothing to do with you. I'm just saying a lot of people, they say my price is $2,000.

Jay Clouse [00:22:16]:
But somebody says, well, how about 500? It's because their perception of value is off. And so.

Pat Gostek [00:22:23]:
So basically communication, like, how do I communicate the value of the 2K?

Jay Clouse [00:22:30]:
Yeah, part of it is like, is that $500 an actual constraint, or is that just how they value you in the marketplace? And if it's how they value you, that's a bigger problem. If it's a real budgetary constraint, they're probably just an unqualified lead.

Pat Gostek [00:22:45]:
Okay, got it. Thanks so much.

Jay Clouse [00:22:48]:
All right, we've got Ana next.

Anna Reich [00:22:51]:
Hi. Yeah, my question is around. So right now, I'm not really creating content because I've been doing market research, interviews with potential clients, and my question is, at what point, I guess, to start making content? Should I only make that once I very clearly know the client and the problem I'm solving for them, or would you use content to learn about the market as well? Because I. I don't need to do content, I think, to build, you know, basic creator skills. I know how to make videos and stuff. So, yeah, yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:23:32]:
I mean, I think you should be creating content now because, yes, you are certainly not starting at, like, square one. You've made content. You make good content. But everybody needs to be constantly me making better and better content, and that only happens with repetitions. So it's not that you couldn't make it. It's that all this time spent not making it is also not improving the craft. So I think that's important. Now, of course, there is a risk.

Jay Clouse [00:24:02]:
If you're like, okay, I'm making content that is appealing to Avatar A, and it turns out from my research three months from now that I actually want to serve Avatar Z, someone that's so far apart, then that might be a bummer, because it's like, well, all that content I made isn't really helpful, but you still at least had some skill development and taste development even. So I think it's worthwhile. I think it's kind of like a muscle that can atrophy if you don't use it. So I would absolutely be creating content. And even if you're not 100% certain who the end target audience will be three months from now, you should make your best guesses and create in that direction.

Anna Reich [00:24:47]:
Okay, and how much of my time?

Jay Clouse [00:24:51]:
How much of your time?

Anna Reich [00:24:52]:
Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:24:55]:
I think it's important to keep a schedule, but that schedule can be anything. So if weekly sounds intense, publish something bi weekly. I think monthly is the bare minimum that I would do, and I think that's probably too slow. I think you can get there at some point, but I think actually a monthly cadence is something you work your way up to as opposed to start from, because I think repetitions at this stage Matter a lot.

Anna Reich [00:25:29]:
Yeah, thanks, I appreciate it.

Jay Clouse [00:25:31]:
Of course, of course. And I know you've operated primarily on YouTube. Do you do any writing an email right now?

Anna Reich [00:25:39]:
Yeah, I do write a weekly email newsletter and then I sometimes write on LinkedIn.

Jay Clouse [00:25:47]:
Yeah, I would say keep doing that. I'm not super strict on how frequently to publish on social media right now because I don't think consistency really matters there unless you're doing like three posts per day on Instagram or TikTok. But I've actually found that posting more infrequently on LinkedIn has been good for me in multiple ways. There was some research to support. I don't know if this is still true, but there was research to support that there was a meaningful difference in people who posted three times per week or more versus less than three times. So again, I don't know if that's still statistically significant, but I would say if LinkedIn is important to you, three posts per week feels doable. There's somebody in our standard tier who's been sharing some of his experiments on LinkedIn and he posts a poll on LinkedIn at least once a week. And in that poll, his post is actually very short.

Jay Clouse [00:26:48]:
It's less than three lines. And one of those lines is a link off to somewhere. And that poll performs incredibly well. And then if that poll is aligned with your audience in some way, you can see who voted on each one of those options and direct message the people who voted in such a way that suggests they might be a good fit for whatever it is that you offer. So polls are a really low lift, high ceiling way to use LinkedIn right now, especially for a lead generation perspective. But yeah, to answer your original question, I would definitely be making content right now.

Anna Reich [00:27:26]:
Thank you, that's really helpful. And I think I've seen his poll today.

Jay Clouse [00:27:30]:
Nice. Yeah, it's, it's. He keeps, he keeps sharing. He's like, I'm still doing this and it's still working.

Jay Clouse [00:27:39]:
We'll be right back to office hours.

Jay Clouse [00:27:40]:
After a quick break for our sponsors.

Jay Clouse [00:27:44]:
And now please enjoy the rest of our office hours conversation from inside the lab.

Jay Clouse [00:27:48]:
All right, David, I got you. And then Travis.

David Fortin [00:27:52]:
All right. Hi, Jay. Hello, everyone, I'm David. Quick question. Actually, not that quick, but it's about community versus courses versus membership. So I was just running like five minutes ago and I was listening to your latest podcast. It's got dropped today and it actually gave me like, not the foam of. I don't know, I'd say that in English, but Anyhow, like I have a.

David Fortin [00:28:12]:
I give Microsoft copilot trainings which is the AI ChatGPT from Microsoft. I do basically two things in person training that are really popular right now. Very high ticket can be 5 to 8k a pop one day. But the online part, because I have an on demand course as well, which is relatively low ticket. I cannot sell a copilot masterclass for $5,000, you know, on demand. I'm having success with this on demand course when it's in other people catalog by instance. I'm a CPA and my course is in the CPA CPA of Ontario here in Canada. We sell a ton of them.

David Fortin [00:28:48]:
My, my courses and other catalogs as well. And it sells pretty well on my side though when it's on my platform, my think effect, it's not going that well. I have a small audience, 10,000 on YouTube, about same on LinkedIn that these are my main platforms and I feel like I'm really bad at Funnel. That's something I'm working on. But that's, that's another topic. So I was wondering like there's many, many aspects to this problem about like where the market is about this tool. Like it's kind of brand new. Lots of people don't even know about it.

David Fortin [00:29:17]:
Like it's relatively new. It people are just figuring out. And I was wondering like when and how do you see like courses versus community and membership? I don't even know if membership and community is the same. I just feel like it's. I'm too early for that in my journey because like it's a lot of maintenance and I see your community and you're doing a great job. And I have a friend as well that does AI in finance, my mentor and he's doing an amazing job. But I feel like he needs to bring people community manager. Like it's a lot of maintenance, right? And I, I don't, I'm not sure I'm there yet.

David Fortin [00:29:49]:
So I wanted to have your thought on that. So super long question, but I'm sure you understand the context now.

Jay Clouse [00:29:55]:
So I do not see community and membership as the same thing. To me a community is a. It's like an object, it's like an entity, right? And so a community is a collection of people. A membership may include a community as part of the value proposition of that membership. But membership could be a lot of things. You know, we have like AAA is this service that helps you with like roadside assistance. Like that's probably not a great example. There are lots of types of memberships that do not include a community.

Jay Clouse [00:30:35]:
It's like you pay for this, you get benefits as part of your membership, but that does not mean that you have an online or offline community. Courses can be a value proposition of a membership, right? So a community is a thing, an entity. If you are selling access to a community, like membership is a product, course is a product, and to me, a community is kind of a collection of people. So at this stage in the journey, I think you could offer, create any of these things. But you're right in seeing that communities are time intensive, fickle things. People are drawn towards memberships because memberships come with recurring revenue and that seems attractive, but recurring revenue derives from recurring value. If you stop providing value to people, they will stop paying for the membership. And it's not recurring.

David Fortin [00:31:39]:
A little bit afraid a little bit of the churn rate. You know, I don't want to put like, oh, I have 10, let's say 100 people, they paid 50% off first year. Then I have to keep going and I'm like, I'm surreal. And then they all turn after year one, you know, I, I don't want to go there. Like I'm afraid of that.

Jay Clouse [00:31:54]:
Yeah, well, I mean you gotta make a good product and you've gotta make it something that people see the value on. This is what I was kind of sharing with Pat is like on a membership also there is the cost of membership and there's a perception of value that you get from that membership. And as long as you are in that person's mind above the threshold of I experience more value, then it's a good chance that they will renew candidly. When we launched the basic tier of the lab, this membership, there was no events, there was no community interaction at all. It was actually just like, here's all the educational materials. And so over time I've expanded what is in the basic membership because I wanted there to be a reason to want to stick around. Like there was, there really was no community as part of the basic membership until a few months ago.

David Fortin [00:32:47]:
And can I double down on that question? Like, do you feel like at the beginning when you started the basic, do you feel like the access to you was. People were buying the basic for a little bit because I could run a live training once a month, gave access to all my courses and there was.

Jay Clouse [00:33:05]:
Also no access to me in the basic membership. I mean, I think that was a part of the reason why people joined standard VIP in the beginning. So yeah, when you have a Membership, you have to say, what are the elements of value that are part of that? So for the lab, we have the community, we have courses, we have access to me, we have events, we have offline events now. So whatever this is, people will say, is this a price I'm willing to pay for the membership. The challenge is this is a concept from product management. There are things that are apparent value and there are things that are discoverable value. A community is not something you can market very well. Because if you're saying you're going to get a ton of value out of the relationships and the conversations you have in this community, I can't say to you, David, when you join the lab, you are going to become best friends with Travis and you and Travis are going to talk about these two things.

Jay Clouse [00:34:14]:
I don't know that. I don't know who you're going to connect with. I don't know what's going to come out of those conversations. Community is something you can't really market as discoverable value. So my strategy has been to just make the amount of clear apparent value inside of courses, inside of access to me, inside of things like Creator hq. These are marketed, sold products. And so I know if you just add these things up, that is more than the cost to join the membership. So that people say that's a pretty good deal.

Jay Clouse [00:34:46]:
There's very low risk for me to join for the first year. And then once you're in here now, I want you to experience this. And that I think is what is the recurring value that's apparent here. So you know, people will churn if they are not experiencing continued value. And if you in your membership just have resources where the value is extracted within a year, then people will churn. The mistake I see a lot of people make is they'll say, okay, the value of my courses in here is $500. The value of this resource is $500. The value of this resource is $300.

Jay Clouse [00:35:25]:
So my membership is going to be $1,000 per year because the added up value of these resources is $1,300. That's a good deal. But for consumable products, that value is extracted in the first year. So year two, this value is not 1,300. This value is zero, essentially. So why would I renew if I extracted all the value? So that's, that's really important in membership is to say, okay, if I want recurring revenue, I need to provide recurring value. What is the mechanism that I do that? Courses are typically one time purchases because the Value is extracted and once through them.

David Fortin [00:36:09]:
All right, thanks.

Jay Clouse [00:36:10]:
Of course. Okay. I'm glad we're. We're making best friends here in the chat. Love that, Anais. Am I saying your name correctly? You had your hand up first, I think.

Anais Cisneros [00:36:18]:
No, actually, Travis was first. So I'm going to be honest.

Jay Clouse [00:36:23]:
I love it. I love it. I love the integrity. All right, Travis.

Travis Ference [00:36:28]:
So my thing right now is, you know, I came here to really get into monetizing my creator business. And I had ideas for products or, you know, wanted to try a community, or maybe I'd try coaching. And then my year's kind of been on pause, and now I'm kind of returning. And so I feel this pressure because of my situation at the moment to really monetize this side of my life in a meaningful and quick manner, because I don't have a lot of time to spend on things that aren't going to make me money at the moment. And so I refuse to quit this. So I really am at this point where there's things I want to make, but I don't know if people will engage with them. And so another part of me thinks maybe I should just figure out exactly what the audience wants. Which leads me to the question of how would you approach making that decision or really identifying what bucket of things the audience would engage with?

Jay Clouse [00:37:35]:
I get this question a lot, and I'm trying to. My feelings on it have evolved a lot is the thing. Like, the longer that I've been in business, the more this, like, validation question to me feels. It's not something I spend a lot of time on because to me, I know my audience so well that I know what they need. So when I hear, like, how do I figure out what my audience needs? To me, the answer is, you need to have a much clearer sense of your audience themselves. Yeah, because, like, you could. You could run a survey, you could do interviews, and you might be able to find some of these problems. But to me, that's like more of a.

Jay Clouse [00:38:19]:
Almost like a software company approach where the problem is, like, really painful. And it can work for creators, too. But, you know, the model for most creators is, like, I have a lot of people who truly like my perspective, and I know the through line that is true about those people. And then it's kind of about having your own conviction about what can serve them based on how well you know them. So I think I would still start there and say, what do I know about my audience? You said you have some things that you want to make, and Is that coming from a place of it's just fun artistic expression, or is that coming to a place of, you have a hunch that this is something that would make a difference for people?

Travis Ference [00:39:11]:
Kind of both. Like one. One is something that I'm interested in, which is a notion hub for music professionals. And I came up with before the LA fires, kind of a way to build in, you know, encouraging them to find work, because that's the. The gap that everybody has in my industry is like, why can I never get gigs? And so I thought if I could make like a. A hub that also kind of poke them to, you know, go find work, that that would be something that would help them. That's in parallel with something that I'm interested in because I just am a notion nerd. The other thing that I.

Travis Ference [00:39:46]:
I've debated is, you know, like a vetted style community, like you're doing here, which is part of the reason I joined. I wanted to experience like a highly active community that's put together well, which I haven't been doing for six months. But I'm going to try to be more. More around now. And so I just feel like that brings value just in the fact that there's a lot of people that aren't in music hub cities and there's a way for them to trade knowledge with each other that that's. That would be beneficial to them. I'm not as interested in doing that on like a. As I don't think it would be as entertaining for me, but I think that might be more valuable to people if it's done right.

Travis Ference [00:40:30]:
So that's kind of where I'm torn is I don't want to do something I don't want to do, but I don't want to do something that's pointless as well.

Jay Clouse [00:40:37]:
Well, as I was sharing with David, I do find that communities are really valuable, but again, it's really hard to market that value. And especially if the people that you're trying to sell to have real painful problems. The connection thing, it feels like a luxury problem. It's like, hey, come hang out with other music producers. And they're like, actually, rent's due next month and I really need to get a project on the books. It's not that this isn't valuable, it's that I don't even have the headspace to think about it right now because I have a real painful problem to solve right now. When your audience is a business owner or somebody who's in a position of financial scarcity, I find that's a very difficult customer to sell to because you're not going to be the only person that's selling to them. And the solution, I kind of like this idea of we have this notion hub and if you follow the guide for how to use it, it's going to nudge you towards doing outreach to get some projects.

Jay Clouse [00:41:47]:
It's still a little bit circuitous to get to that goal. Right. You know, you have, you have the notion system. What they want is clients. They are here right now. Like, they want the shortest direction to clients as possible. And you're like, well, you actually have to go through this to get there. Which, you know, if this is, if this is a map that they trust gets them there and they don't otherwise have a map that could be valuable, you know.

Jay Clouse [00:42:19]:
But then you don't sell it as a notion product, you sell it as a map. You say, I have this, I have this guide that's going to get you to the point of clients and that's going to be an attractive proposition. But in a, in an audience with financial scarcity, who has probably been marketed a similar promise in the past, then you're really going to have to crush them with social proof to say this map works. Look at these people who have followed the map, hear from them that this has worked for them and that's what's ultimately going to sell it. It's the combination of the promise and the social proof. Because again, if you're coming from a place of financial scarcity, then investing anything is going to feel risky.

Travis Ference [00:43:03]:
Yeah, that is true. My target audience is always in financial scarcity. I like that idea of map and guide as opposed to hub. That's an interesting twist. I like that.

Jay Clouse [00:43:14]:
Yeah. Because I mean, people don't buy stuff, they buy outcomes. So you really have to, you have to lean into the outcome. And really what people want to know is, is this for me, what does it do for me and why should I trust you? You have to say, I have made a map for insert avatar to get you clients. Here's why, you know, I can deliver on it, why this product works. Most people are like, I built an ocean hub. And it's like, okay, for who and what does it do for me? But they don't actually ask those questions. They say, sounds like something I don't care about.

Jay Clouse [00:44:02]:
You really have to talk in terms of what is the painful thing that you are experiencing that I am promising a solve for, for you specifically. And here's why you should trust that I can deliver on it. And then ultimately you have to deliver on it.

Travis Ference [00:44:17]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that changes the whole approach that I was thinking. I was thinking I'll make notion videos that relate to how this applies to this part of your music career, but that you're trying to sell notion to somebody when you should just be, like you said, selling the outcome.

Jay Clouse [00:44:35]:
Yeah. If you say, I know your problem, I have a solution, and here's evidence to prove that the solution works, then people are like, okay, what's the price sold? And how you actually deliver the solution then unfolds after that. It matters. It's a secondary thing. The form factor should really just facilitate the most elegant delivery of that solution so that ultimately they just get to that other side as quickly as possible.

Travis Ference [00:45:02]:
Yeah, cool.

Jay Clouse [00:45:04]:
That's, again, that's taking the, like, you know, in startup world, they have vitamins versus painkillers. Painkillers sell a lot better than vitamins because you're feeling that pain. I would say most memberships that are about connection probably play in vitamin land more than painkiller land. And if you're in vitamin land, then you are basically, it's closer to a luxury good than an essential. And if you're selling luxury goods, you need to be selling to people who have disposable income and less painful problems, I guess.

Travis Ference [00:45:43]:
Cool. I love that. Thank you.

Jay Clouse [00:45:46]:
All right. An ace. And am I saying your name correctly?

Anais Cisneros [00:45:49]:
No, but it's fine. It's a French name. Anais.

Jay Clouse [00:45:53]:
Anais.

Jay Clouse [00:45:53]:
Okay. Okay. Anais.

Anais Cisneros [00:45:58]:
Yeah, you got it. Oh, my God. Okay, I can't make it to a question. I actually have a very technical question. So I'm starting to experiment with email marketing. And obviously I know there is mailchimp, there is Brevo, there is kid. There are multiple things. I'm just wondering if anyone's been able to integrate their email marketing with their CRM in a smooth way.

Anais Cisneros [00:46:21]:
Because this is all going to go to my customer base, but I want to be able to tailor it somehow. I've tried both Brevo and mailchimp, and I just didn't find something that I love because the database lives on the thing. It doesn't live in my CRM. So I don't know if people have an idea on that.

Jay Clouse [00:46:41]:
What CRM are you using?

Anais Cisneros [00:46:43]:
Atio.

Jay Clouse [00:46:44]:
I'm not familiar with it. I don't do a whole lot of CRM stuff. I would typically see, like, okay, if the CRM is the most important thing to you, find what email tool users of that CRM specifically are using the most because that's gotta be a solved problem. I look at most. What do you guys use?

Anais Cisneros [00:47:06]:
I'm wondering.

Jay Clouse [00:47:07]:
Well, I don't really use like a CRM. I use Kit and I have a ton of custom fields. I use tagging. Essentially, it is my CRM, but it's not a CRM software, so to speak. And if you want to add certain fields that are not out of the box in Kit, you can do that. But effectively, Kit is my CRM proceeding to the chat. Kit has a CRRM integration with HubSpot. I don't know how that looks.

Jay Clouse [00:47:36]:
HubSpot is like a pretty expensive tool, at least like the core product. And I actually see a lot of folks in my space graduate from Kit to HubSpot, but like HubSpot Enterprise Big Boy version, and end up sending emails out of HubSpot. But I think at this stage I wouldn't recommend Mailchimp. I would definitely play in the world of Kit or activecampaign or flodesk. Because you're talking about email marketing specifically. A lot of times people talk about Kit and the competitors they talk about are Beehive Substack. Those are newsletter tools. If you're talking about email marketing specifically, I would say Kit would be comparable to ActiveCampaign and Flodesk, and probably mostly ActiveCampaign.

Anais Cisneros [00:48:26]:
Okay, awesome. Thank you so much. I know we're out of time, but just. I'll throw it. If I wanted to talk about tooling in the chat, I'm new, where would I talk about it?

Jay Clouse [00:48:36]:
Yeah, put it in the discussion channel. So inside of basic Lounge. Put it in the discussion forum, I would say is the best place because that's the forum space. You'll typically get deeper, more contextual stuff there. The chat room that we have in the basic lounge is a little bit more of a social space.

Anais Cisneros [00:48:55]:
Awesome. Thank you so much.

Jay Clouse [00:48:57]:
Yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:48:58]:
Okay, we are at time, but if anybody is sitting here and they're saying I really did have a question and I didn't get to it, I'm willing to hang out for a couple more minutes to do one last if we need to.

Moly Yim [00:49:10]:
I don't have a question, but I do want to just share something. Cool.

Jay Clouse [00:49:15]:
Sure.

Moly Yim [00:49:17]:
Can I share my screen?

Jay Clouse [00:49:18]:
You should be able to.

Moly Yim [00:49:20]:
So just based off, you know, the conversation that we had last month about Signature Product Journey, I just put together a little journey for myself that has been like practically life changing.

Moly Yim [00:49:34]:
So thank you, Jay.

Jay Clouse [00:49:35]:
Oh, nice.

Jay Clouse [00:49:37]:
Oh, man, I love flows like this.

Moly Yim [00:49:40]:
Yeah, I started off with just like A brain dump here. You can see I've been through, like, multiple versions, but the biggest win for me has just been I've had so many other ideas come in over the past month and every single time I come back to this chart and I'm like, hey, where would it fit? Let's be real. I have actually let go, but with a sense of purpose now of those side hustle ideas or whatever, because I couldn't figure out where is it going to fit in my journey. And so you can see for me, this is my signature product, the Playbook, and I've been able to like, really sit and like, connect everything a lot more clearly. So thank you, Jay.

Jay Clouse [00:50:26]:
I love that. And it's beautifully designed. Ah, man, what a fun way to end the call.

David Fortin [00:50:32]:
Can we go back and watch the recording from last month? I just joined the lab, or do I have access to that? Good, I'm going to watch it because it's very nice what you did. Boom. And. And, yeah, thank you. And share a screenshot or something. That will be great as well, if you don't mind.

David Fortin [00:50:45]:
Congrats.

Moly Yim [00:50:46]:
Yeah, I created an airtable version for myself as well. And I think. I mean, I'm not really a notion guy, but anybody who wants to neither duplicate it for notion or I'm sure you could do that too. I'll post.

David Fortin [00:51:00]:
Cool, thanks. Thanks for sharing, man. Appreciate it.

Moly Yim [00:51:02]:
Yeah, of course.

Jay Clouse [00:51:02]:
So, David and anybody else interested, if you go into the events calendar here in the lounge up here, this is not as intuitive as it should be. This says upcoming by default, but you change this to past, and then you can look at last month's office hours. May 7th. And we have the recording here as well as some of the takeaways. I believe that conversation with Moly was okay. It's actually right here. It's about 20ish minutes in. All right, everybody, thanks for hanging.

Jay Clouse [00:51:35]:
Good to see you. I'll see you next month. I put a conversation in the forum a couple weeks ago. I'm considering doing another one of these per month. And actually what I'm thinking is I might make a shared office hours open to everybody of all levels. So it'll probably be a little bit busier, but then we can have two of these per month for you guys. All right, see you, buddy.